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RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 6:33:14 PM

defiantbadgirl

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I don't know Obama personally, so I wouldn't know if he's a Narcissist. From everything I've read as well as personal experience, I think forgiving anyone without a conscience or the ability to feel remorse is a waste of time. They only apologize when they want something in addition to forgiveness. Forgiving them and then cutting them off does not bring peace because even then, they find a way to get revenge. Also, giving in to them enables their behavior. It's so much better to refuse to give them what they want and laugh in rememberance of their overblown egotistical comments.

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Post #: 21

RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 6:35:28 PM

BonesFromAsh

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Color me confused but what does this....

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

It is said that God forgives his followers for their sins because Jesus died on the cross. All we have to do is believe and ask for forgiveness. Christians are also expected to forgive those who hurt them. What about those who apologize not out of remorse or regret, but for selfish reasons (they want something from you)? What about Sociopaths and Narcissists who have no conscience, feel no remorse, and non-consentually hurt others simply because they get pleasure from it? Could telling such individuals you forgive them be seen as consenting to future abuse (not accepting your own responsibility to protect yourself), even from a Christian perspective? Christians are told to forgive their enemies, yet Matthew 7:6 says "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." What if a Christian views forgiveness as valuable, like a pearl? As a Christian, do you feel like you're required to forgive everyone, including Sociopaths and Narcissists who have no conscience and feel no remorse? Do you think God forgives those without conscience or remorse and allows them to enter heaven knowing the danger of them turning and tearing His followers to pieces in heaven?

....have to do with this....

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
Unfortunately, some think they can refuse to be cut off. I dared to disagree with him when he said I wasn't on his level and he was above me. I refused to forgive him for his past cruelty. I refused to give him $150 like a "good friend" would. He thinks all the overweight women he knows were put on this earth to give him money. Favorite quotes of his include "I am the best." "I'm the mutha fukin boss. Everybody's boss." "I'm the king." "Call me God." He said I would suffer the consequences for daring to treat him that way and reminded me that he knows where I live, the car I drive, and where I work. Then he accurately named my new boss and said they are friends. No third party overheard my last conversation with him. If he vandalizes my car, there's no way to prove it unless someone actually sees him do it. If he gets his revenge through my new boss, so be it. I take responsibility for protecting myself, I refuse to forgive him, and I refuse to allow him to victimize me.

....?

Sounds like you need to worry less about christianity/G*d/forgiveness and worry more about contacting your local police department to discuss a case of harassment.

Oh, and in keeping with the original question...I'm a recovering christian turned agnostic but I don't see forgiveness as being something given to benefit the person being forgiven. It's for the person doing the forgiving so they can move on and start to let go of the nasty tumor of anger/bitterness/resentment. That doesn't mean you have to forget, it just means you've made a step in that direction.

< Message edited by BonesFromAsh -- 12/2/2010 6:38:25 PM >

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 22

RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 7:03:30 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
I dared to disagree with him when he said I wasn't on his level and he was above me.

Likely he told the truth as he perceived it. Possibly he was right. (Does he have a high IQ?)
However, the reverse is also true: he is not on your level and you know better than he does, as he is in some respects mentally handicapped, a cripple.

Apples can tell pears that they are not apples, but reversely pears can tell apples that they are not pears.

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
I refused to forgive him for his past cruelty.

Even though he has no conscience and cannot conceive of his misdeeds, he is accountable for his acts. Even though he cannot atone (?) for his misdeeds, nor mourn them, he ought to recompense those he wronged.

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
I refused to give him $150 like a "good friend" would.

Again he is telling you the truth as he perceives it. The problem is that though he has a concept of what a friend is, he lacks the mental faculty to truly comprehend what a friend is.

He probably neither perceives the value of money, spending it as though it was water to satisfy his selfish needs. On the plus side, though likely a crook, he ought to have the ability to earn a lot of money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
Favorite quotes of his include "I am the best." "I'm the mutha fukin boss. Everybody's boss." "I'm the king." "Call me God."

lol. Again he is telling the truth as he perceives it and possibly he is correct. However, there are also other avatars of 'pagan gods' that are also the best in their own way and usually they will best him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
He said I would suffer the consequences for daring to treat him that way and reminded me that he knows where I live, the car I drive, and where I work. Then he accurately named my new boss and said they are friends.

Again he is telling the truth as he perceives it and you ought to take his threat seriously. Perhaps it is possible to ameliorate him by making a small gesture towards him? I counsel you to consult a psychologist who specializes in such mentally handicapped people and who may perhaps be able and willing to mediate?

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
No third party overheard my last conversation with him. If he vandalizes my car, there's no way to prove it unless someone actually sees him do it. If he gets his revenge through my new boss, so be it. I take responsibility for protecting myself, I refuse to forgive him, and I refuse to allow him to victimize me.

I urge you to not deal with this threat alone. He is not a normal person and his perception of reality is warped. Mediation to resolve the conflict might be successful and be the best solution. An alternative solution is to avoid him and even move. In any case talk to your boss.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 23

RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 7:18:29 PM

defiantbadgirl

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I detailed my own experience to demonstrate what these people are like. I quoted his favorite statements to add some humor to the thread. Also, the advice on how to deal with them is a good example of how they expect others to basically worship them. Forgiving someone only to have them stomp on that forgiveness and tear the person who forgave them apart defeats the peaceful feeling forgiveness is supposed to bring. When everyone forgives them, they feel like they got away with it, which only encourages them to continue their destructive behavior on new victims. I agree that in most situations of past conflict (situations that don't involve someone without a conscience), forgiveness is the best thing. But in my opinion, there are exceptions.

_____________________________

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Post #: 24

RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 7:48:15 PM

BonesFromAsh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I agree that in most situations of past conflict (situations that don't involve someone without a conscience), forgiveness is the best thing. But in my opinion, there are exceptions.

Your original question was one based on the christian views of forgiveness.

Matthew 6:14-15 states

quote:

6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Forgiveness, in a christian sense, is given as an act of obedience to god first and foremost, or so I've been given to understand. This isn't to say that you need to continue to trust the person you forgive, it means you're acting in obedience to god by following his command.

In reading your quote above, I'm left to wonder if god even fits into the picture. Who is following who? (or is that whom...I always forget)

You might find this interesting... Is forgiving forgetting?

< Message edited by BonesFromAsh -- 12/2/2010 7:49:03 PM >

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Post #: 25

RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 8:27:15 PM

littlewonder

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I can forgive but I don't forget and I don't need to tell that person that I am forgiving them and I don't need them to apologize for me to forgive them.

Forgiving has to do with my morality, my convictions, my faith to God. My forgiveness is not based upon the other person.

If you are forgiving and expecting something from the other person then you're really not forgiving...you're looking for an apology or justification. That's not forgiveness.

Forgiveness is what is in your heart and spirit to God in all sincerity.

(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

Post #: 26

RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 8:44:34 PM

defiantbadgirl

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But Matthew 7:6 says "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."

If one sees forgiveness as the pearl and those lacking a conscience as pigs, what then is the meaning of Matthew 7:6?

My main concerns with forgiveness for people without a conscience are those who forgive becoming vulnerable to having their forgiveness trampled and being torn to pieces and enabling the perpetrator (they feel like they got away with it, which encourages them to continue their evil deeds with future unsuspecting victims). Is it right to forgive in a situation where forgiveness enables evil?

_____________________________

Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.

Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

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Post #: 27

RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 8:47:17 PM

BonesFromAsh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

But Matthew 7:6 says "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."

If one sees forgiveness as the pearl and those lacking a conscience as pigs, what then is the meaning of Matthew 7:6?

My main concerns with forgiveness for people without a conscience are those who forgive becoming vulnerable to having their forgiveness trampled and being torn to pieces and enabling the perpetrator (they feel like they got away with it, which encourages them to continue their evil deeds with future unsuspecting victims). Is it right to forgive in a situation where forgiveness enables evil?

Are you asking this from a christian perspective? If so, I strongly suggest you read the link I offered in my previous post.

Taken from the link I offered...

quote:

There are two prerequisites for knowing that you have forgiven: first, you must understand forgiveness (what the Bible says about forgiveness), and second, you must have forgiven (been obedient to God's commands regarding forgiveness).

Again, if you're coming at this from a christian angle, forgiveness is an act of obedience to god.

< Message edited by BonesFromAsh -- 12/2/2010 8:52:05 PM >

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Post #: 28

RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 10:53:49 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

If one sees forgiveness as the pearl...

If one sees forgiveness as "the pearl," one has failed to comprehend the metaphor. It is first of all pearls, plural, and refers to spiritual wisdom. The metaphor appears again in Revelations 21:21, wherein the gates to the Holy City are described as pearls (hence expressions like "pearls of wisdom" and "the pearly gates").

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/2/2010 10:57:05 PM >

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 29

RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 11:19:13 PM

GotSteel

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I'm fairly confident that President Obama isn't a narcissist, I don't suppose you could take it down a notch for America.

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Post #: 30

RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 11:22:38 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Forgiveness has nothing to do with the other persons motives, it has to do with one's own.

If someone is insincere so what? Even if they keep doing something...again... it's not their sincerity, that demands forgiveness, its one's own.

You don't have to be their best friend.

Now, Forgiveness and Justice are two different things. You can be forgiving while pursuing justice or even self defense.

Personally I am an agnostic, so the question isn't addressed to me. But your response strikes me as an excellent one!

Impressive.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 31

RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 11:27:10 PM

Savage884

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A question for the OP: why on earth would paradise be a place where you can die, even assuming it is a place where you can be a murderer? You can't even really die in Valhalla, for crying out loud, and they kill each other daily there. This question smacks of silly, and of a deep lack of understanding.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 32

RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 11:31:29 PM

Savage884

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Kirata:

ROFL!

I dunno, man; I'm perfectly comfortable with forgiving a miscreant *after* shooting him.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 33

RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 12:01:44 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

But Matthew 7:6 says "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."

I think that where this is relevant is in the PROCESS you use to handle the "forgiveness" thing. As many have mentioned, including myself, forgiveness isn't about getting an -apology- from this person. It is about letting go of the anger, fear, and hatred in your own heart, and getting yourself back into a place where you can move forward. There is -nothing- that says that you even have to -talk- to this person ever again... but at least on an internal basis, it is important to forgive their transgressions ("Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.") and move on.

As has been said a number of times in this thread, forgiving someone does not mean continuing to allow them to victimize you. It means, just as an example, getting a Restraining Order, and spending a little time going through all of the areas in your own mind where you perceive yourself hurt and still waiting for that person to apologize and LETTING IT GO. In exchange, you get piece of mind, AND a sense of security in knowing that this person's impact on your life is now negligible -- xhe can't hurt you any more, because you've released the anger that kept you tied to hir (and which, for many people, continues the pattern of destruction initiated by that individual).

"Do not cast ye pearls before swine"... Do not talk to this person and tell them that they're forgiven--don't expose yourself or your progress to hir for hir to cut it down... just forgive, let go, move on -- and don't give hir the opportunity to incite more damage. Does that make sense?

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 12/3/2010 12:03:26 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 8:41:19 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I'm fairly confident that President Obama isn't a narcissist...

Are you under the impression that the photo you posted somehow supports your case?

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 35

RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 9:06:44 AM

Jaybeee

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What on Earth generated this sudden disdain for narcissism? There's nothing wrong improving your attractiveness, I consider it an honour when my slave tones up her thighs/calves for me, I tell her to regulate her intake of calories/carbs once and that's she needs to know.

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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 9:26:40 AM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

What on Earth generated this sudden disdain for narcissism? There's nothing wrong improving your attractiveness, I consider it an honour when my slave tones up her thighs/calves for me, I tell her to regulate her intake of calories/carbs once and that's she needs to know.

Narcissism is an excessive self-love. I see nothing wrong with taking pride in one's appearance, and working towards an attractive body/personage. I wouldn't call that narcissism.

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Post #: 37

RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 9:29:39 AM

Twoshoes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

What on Earth generated this sudden disdain for narcissism? There's nothing wrong improving your attractiveness, I consider it an honour when my slave tones up her thighs/calves for me, I tell her to regulate her intake of calories/carbs once and that's she needs to know.

Narcissism is an excessive self-love. I see nothing wrong with taking pride in one's appearance, and working towards an attractive body/personage. I wouldn't call that narcissism.

Technically, it's called "healthy narcissism" - you can look it up. Most people don't mean that by "narcissism", so you can call it whatever you want, I suppose.

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Post #: 38

RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 9:37:43 AM

windchymes

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I wasn't under the impression that forgiveness was something we bestowed upon someone, but rather that it was something we did and felt internally, in and with the heart.

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Post #: 39

RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 10:00:05 AM

Jaybeee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

What on Earth generated this sudden disdain for narcissism? There's nothing wrong improving your attractiveness, I consider it an honour when my slave tones up her thighs/calves for me, I tell her to regulate her intake of calories/carbs once and that's she needs to know.

Narcissism is an excessive self-love. I see nothing wrong with taking pride in one's appearance, and working towards an attractive body/personage. I wouldn't call that narcissism.

Technically, it's called "healthy narcissism" - you can look it up. Most people don't mean that by "narcissism", so you can call it whatever you want, I suppose.

Thanks for clearing that up. Well, in any case it's likely to be used in the accusatory form primarily by the unattractive.

(in reply to Twoshoes)

Post #: 40

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