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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 10:36:24 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
Well, in any case it's likely to be used in the accusatory form primarily by the unattractive.

It hasn't got anything to do with attractiveness. A narcissist isn't as dangerous as a mass murdering psychopath, but there is not much of a difference. A narcissist may just as easily murder someone in a second and never lose a wink of sleep over it.


< Message edited by Rule -- 12/3/2010 10:37:52 AM >

(in reply to Jaybeee)
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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 11:48:37 AM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
Well, in any case it's likely to be used in the accusatory form primarily by the unattractive.

It hasn't got anything to do with attractiveness.


Actually, that's the central tenet of narcissism. Vanity, pride, EGO...

The underachieving classes will distort the reality of their situation to make themselves feel better about their lowliness. But that's not a bad thing per se; whatever gets them through life and doesn't hurt others, that's cool.


(in reply to Rule)
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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 11:51:59 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

Thanks for clearing that up. Well, in any case it's likely to be used in the accusatory form primarily by the unattractive.


Actually, any time I've ever used the word or heard/seen it used, it had zero to do with anyone being attractive or not. It had everything to do with the person's behaviour. The person I've heard it used most for, in my life, is not attractive at all. He is a fat, balding, old man.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 12/3/2010 11:52:39 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Jaybeee)
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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 12:04:26 PM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

Thanks for clearing that up. Well, in any case it's likely to be used in the accusatory form primarily by the unattractive.


Actually, any time I've ever used the word or heard/seen it used, it had zero to do with anyone being attractive or not. It had everything to do with the person's behaviour. The person I've heard it used most for, in my life, is not attractive at all. He is a fat, balding, old man.


Well, now you've been made aware of the correct usage, you can adjust appropriately.

< Message edited by Jaybeee -- 12/3/2010 12:07:25 PM >

(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 12:11:13 PM   
LaTigresse


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Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I've no interest in adjusting nor in attempting to correct the many people I come into contact with daily, that use it in a similar fashion to what I've described.

AND, when I look the word up in the dictionary.......I see nothing about attractiveness having any exclusivity in the trait, only as a potential part of the trait.


< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 12/3/2010 12:14:29 PM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Jaybeee)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 12:16:09 PM   
Jaybeee


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Status: offline 		Indeed, people such as yourself usually do what's popular, not what's correct.

Was interesting talking to you, thanks.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 12:20:23 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		You on the other hand in my experience have not been interesting in these posts, but obnoxious. I find that I have no interest in reading any of your further posts.

(in reply to Jaybeee)
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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 12:20:40 PM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

Indeed, people such as yourself usually do what's popular, not what's correct.

Was interesting talking to you, thanks.


How unfortunate that you make absolutely zero sense.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Jaybeee)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 12:22:13 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		At least I comprehended that I ought to prevent myself from reading his or her future posts.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 12:23:26 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I can forgive but I don't forget and I don't need to tell that person that I am forgiving them and I don't need them to apologize for me to forgive them.

Forgiving has to do with my morality, my convictions, my faith to God. My forgiveness is not based upon the other person.

If you are forgiving and expecting something from the other person then you're really not forgiving...you're looking for an apology or justification. That's not forgiveness.

Forgiveness is what is in your heart and spirit to God in all sincerity.
Nicely said.  Most that have posted here have noted some form of the idea that forgiveness is for the one doing the forgiving, not necessarily the one being forgiven. 

But I think little wonder brings up a good point:  if the reason you are giving someone is to seek an apology OR "in return" for their apology or, on some other level, to be seen in a more (forgive this, wonder) "wonderful and magnanimous" light by the person who has hurt you, then you are not really forgiving...you are seeking something and using the forgiveness as the ammunition to bag it.  That is not forgiveness.

I've forgiven most people that have wronged me...though only a handful of those were spoken aloud to the person who had done so.  Most of them were to remove my own pain and anger and hurt.  It was between me and myself and me and God.  As for the person being forgiven, and maybe this is a cynical outlook...many times the forgiveness and the memory of the pain they caused through their actions or behaviors is forgotten within a few days because you have made a sincere effort to move on and they WELCOME the opportunity to put "the past" behind them.  How sincere are they in their remorse...in their promise to tweak their behavior?  Take a look at how soon hurtful or wrong or harmful actions occur again...or worse, the same actions occur...and that should begin to give you a clue how important you really are to that person and the level of importance and hurt/disappointment/wrong they accord to their actions.  Sort of like the "fool/hurt/anger you once...shame on me, fool/hurt/anger you again...shame on you". 

As for forgetting...I may forgive but as others have noted, I don't completely forget.  I try to set it aside or put it away, once I have dealt with it, so that I can relate to this person if I want whatever relationship I have with them to go on.  But a wall begins to be built.

(in reply to littlewonder)
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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 12:27:41 PM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		And the delightful thing about forgiveness is that, you don't even have to be Christian (in any traditional sense) to do it.

For me, it's more about accepting a person is just being who they are, all of them, and determining based upon that, how much you want them to influence your life. Primarily your emotional life.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 12:34:53 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

And the delightful thing about forgiveness is that, you don't even have to be Christian (in any traditional sense) to do it.

For me, it's more about accepting a person is just being who they are, all of them, and determining based upon that, how much you want them to influence your life. Primarily your emotional life.




I absolutely agree, I am not a Christian though I do think the core message of "Do unto others..." is fine and worthy of following.

To keep on hating somebody who wronged me, that's giving the person far too much influence over my life, it doesn't mean I have to turn the other cheek or that I can't get even, but usually it's not even worth getting even, the best revenge is living a nice life.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 12:47:14 PM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

And the delightful thing about forgiveness is that, you don't even have to be Christian (in any traditional sense) to do it.

For me, it's more about accepting a person is just being who they are, all of them, and determining based upon that, how much you want them to influence your life. Primarily your emotional life.




I absolutely agree, I am not a Christian though I do think the core message of "Do unto others..." is fine and worthy of following.

To keep on hating somebody who wronged me, that's giving the person far too much influence over my life, it doesn't mean I have to turn the other cheek or that I can't get even, but usually it's not even worth getting even, the best revenge is living a nice life.


Very definitely. I don't think the satisfaction of active revenge is one to always be dispensed with, but it really should be a "Spare moment" thing. Anything more consumes the kind of time that cuts into the pleasure from the rest of life. It's much more effective on the cost-reward scale to not take revenge, than to take it.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)
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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 1:42:52 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
It hasn't got anything to do with attractiveness.

Actually, that's the central tenet of narcissism. Vanity, pride, EGO...

There appears to me to be precious little connection between vanity and pride, and attractiveness.

K.

(in reply to Jaybeee)
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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 1:49:29 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

You mentioned Narcissists in 3 separate posts so I am sharing this which actually works with the narcissists in my life. (I spent 5 years wondering why Conscious Communication was ineffective with my narc.)

FIVE DON'T DO'S
How to Avoid the Wrath of the Narcissist

1. Never disagree with the narcissist or contradict him;
2. Never offer him any intimacy;
3. Look awed by whatever attribute matters to him (for instance: by his professional achievements or by his good looks, or by his success with women and so on);
4. Never remind him of life out there and if you do, connect it somehow to his sense of grandiosity;
5. Do not make any comment, which might directly or indirectly impinge on his self-image, omnipotence, judgment, omniscience, skills, capabilities, professional record, or even omnipresence. Bad sentences start with: "I think you overlooked ... made a mistake here ... you don't know ... do you know ... you were not here yesterday so ... you cannot ... you should ... (perceived as rude imposition, narcissists react very badly to restrictions placed on their freedom) ... I (never mention the fact that you are a separate, independent entity, narcissists regard others as extensions of their selves, their internalization processes were screwed up and they did not differentiate properly) ..." You get the gist of it.

The TEN DO'S
How to Make your Narcissist Dependent on You
If you INSIST on Staying with Him
http://samvak.tripod.com/abusefamily19.html

For the record, neither the writer nor I are recommending close ties with narcissists but sometimes one can't simply cut them off.



I notice the writer refers to "him". 

I don't know whether that is meant generically or not, but trust me the her version exists. 

I really think more than the male version.





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 12/3/2010 1:51:11 PM >

(in reply to kalikshama)
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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 2:20:49 PM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		Jaybeee,

You are using Narcissism as per the Greek myth. The rest of us are using it in the personality disorder sense of the word.

Diagnostic criteria (DSM-IV):

The essential feature of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (either in fantasy or actual behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy that begins by early adulthood and is present in a variety of situations and environments.

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:
- Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
- Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
- Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
- Rarely acknowledges mistakes and/or imperfections
- Requires excessive admiration
- Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
- Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
- Lacks empathy: is unwilling or unable to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
- Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
- Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitude.


(in reply to Jaybeee)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 2:23:58 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

I notice the writer refers to "him".  I don't know whether that is meant generically or not, but trust me the her version exists.  I really think more than the male version.


While this may be true for you anecdotally, statistically narcissism is more prevalent in males.

Collarchat would be a lot less fun if less people used anecdotes.

KK

Demographics

DSM-IV-TR states that 2% to 16% of the clinical population and slightly less than 1% of the general population of the United States suffers from NPD. Between 50% and 75% of those diagnosed with NPD are males. Little is known about the prevalence of NPD across racial and ethnic groups.
Gender issues

The high preponderance of male patients in studies of narcissism has prompted researchers to explore the effects of gender roles on this particular personality disorder. Some have speculated that the gender imbalance in NPD results from society's disapproval of self-centered and exploitative behavior in women, who are typically socialized to nurture, please, and generally focus their attention on others. Others have remarked that the imbalance is more apparent than real, and that it reflects a basically sexist definition of narcissism. These researchers suggest that definitions of the disorder should be rewritten in future editions of DSM to account for ways in which narcissistic personality traits manifest differently in men and in women.

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 2:44:53 PM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Jaybeee,

You are using Narcissism as per the Greek myth. The rest of us are using it in the personality disorder sense of the word.


Here's the definition I'm using;

World English Dictionary
narcissism or narcism (ˈnɑːsɪˌsɪzəm, ˈnɑːˌsɪzəm)

— n
1. an exceptional interest in or admiration for oneself, esp one's physical appearance.


(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: a question for Christians - 12/3/2010 8:28:16 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		nar·cis·sism   /ˈnɑrsəˌsɪzɛm/ Show Spelled
[nahr-suh-siz-em] Show IPA

–noun
1. inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity.
2. Psychoanalysis . erotic gratification derived from admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes, being a normal condition at the infantile level of personality development.

Try posting a full definition next time.

But, since you cant seem to quite understand that narcissism is a psychological disorder as well, and thats typically how people view that condition...

Medical Dictionary

nar·cis·sism definition
Pronunciation: /ˈnär-sə-ˌsiz-əm/
Function: n
1 : love of or sexual desire for one's own body
2 : the state or stage of development in psychoanalytic theory in which there is considerable erotic interest in one's own body and ego and which in abnormal forms persists through fixation or reappears through regression
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2007 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
Cite This Source
narcissism nar·cis·sism (när'sĭ-sĭz'əm) or nar·cism (när'sĭz'əm)
n.

1.Excessive love or admiration of oneself.

2.Erotic pleasure derived from contemplation or admiration of one's own body or self, especially as a fixation on or a regression to an infantile stage of development.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nar'cis·sist n.
nar'cis·sis'tic adj.
nar'cis·sis'ti·cal·ly adv.
The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Cite This Source

Cultural Dictionary

narcissism [( nahr -suh-siz-uhm)]


A consuming self-absorption or self-love; a type of egotism. Narcissists constantly assess their appearance, desires, feelings, and abilities.

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/narcissism

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Jaybeee)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: a question for Christians - 12/4/2010 11:49:04 AM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

nar·cis·sism   /ˈnɑrsəˌsɪzɛm/ Show Spelled
[nahr-suh-siz-em] Show IPA

–noun
1. inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity.
2. Psychoanalysis . erotic gratification derived from admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes, being a normal condition at the infantile level of personality development.

Try posting a full definition next time.

But, since you cant seem to quite understand that narcissism is a psychological disorder as well, and thats typically how people view that condition...


Oh I know what people ALLEGE are disorders. But to define disorder, you must first define order.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 60
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