RE: a question for Christians

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Rule -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 10:36:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee Well, in any case it's likely to be used in the accusatory form primarily by the unattractive. It hasn't got anything to do with attractiveness. A narcissist isn't as dangerous as a mass murdering psychopath, but there is not much of a difference. A narcissist may just as easily murder someone in a second and never lose a wink of sleep over it.

Jaybeee -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 11:48:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee Well, in any case it's likely to be used in the accusatory form primarily by the unattractive. It hasn't got anything to do with attractiveness. Actually, that's the central tenet of narcissism. Vanity, pride, EGO... The underachieving classes will distort the reality of their situation to make themselves feel better about their lowliness. But that's not a bad thing per se; whatever gets them through life and doesn't hurt others, that's cool.

LaTigresse -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 11:51:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee Thanks for clearing that up. Well, in any case it's likely to be used in the accusatory form primarily by the unattractive. Actually, any time I've ever used the word or heard/seen it used, it had zero to do with anyone being attractive or not. It had everything to do with the person's behaviour. The person I've heard it used most for, in my life, is not attractive at all. He is a fat, balding, old man.

Jaybeee -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 12:04:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee Thanks for clearing that up. Well, in any case it's likely to be used in the accusatory form primarily by the unattractive. Actually, any time I've ever used the word or heard/seen it used, it had zero to do with anyone being attractive or not. It had everything to do with the person's behaviour. The person I've heard it used most for, in my life, is not attractive at all. He is a fat, balding, old man. Well, now you've been made aware of the correct usage, you can adjust appropriately.

LaTigresse -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 12:11:13 PM)
I've no interest in adjusting nor in attempting to correct the many people I come into contact with daily, that use it in a similar fashion to what I've described. AND, when I look the word up in the dictionary.......I see nothing about attractiveness having any exclusivity in the trait, only as a potential part of the trait.

Jaybeee -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 12:16:09 PM)
Indeed, people such as yourself usually do what's popular, not what's correct. Was interesting talking to you, thanks.

Rule -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 12:20:23 PM)
You on the other hand in my experience have not been interesting in these posts, but obnoxious. I find that I have no interest in reading any of your further posts.

LaTigresse -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 12:20:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee Indeed, people such as yourself usually do what's popular, not what's correct. Was interesting talking to you, thanks. How unfortunate that you make absolutely zero sense.

Rule -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 12:22:13 PM)
At least I comprehended that I ought to prevent myself from reading his or her future posts.

CreativeDominant -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 12:23:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder I can forgive but I don't forget and I don't need to tell that person that I am forgiving them and I don't need them to apologize for me to forgive them. Forgiving has to do with my morality, my convictions, my faith to God. My forgiveness is not based upon the other person. If you are forgiving and expecting something from the other person then you're really not forgiving...you're looking for an apology or justification. That's not forgiveness. Forgiveness is what is in your heart and spirit to God in all sincerity. Nicely said. Most that have posted here have noted some form of the idea that forgiveness is for the one doing the forgiving, not necessarily the one being forgiven. But I think little wonder brings up a good point: if the reason you are giving someone is to seek an apology OR "in return" for their apology or, on some other level, to be seen in a more (forgive this, wonder) "wonderful and magnanimous" light by the person who has hurt you, then you are not really forgiving...you are seeking something and using the forgiveness as the ammunition to bag it. That is not forgiveness. I've forgiven most people that have wronged me...though only a handful of those were spoken aloud to the person who had done so. Most of them were to remove my own pain and anger and hurt. It was between me and myself and me and God. As for the person being forgiven, and maybe this is a cynical outlook...many times the forgiveness and the memory of the pain they caused through their actions or behaviors is forgotten within a few days because you have made a sincere effort to move on and they WELCOME the opportunity to put "the past" behind them. How sincere are they in their remorse...in their promise to tweak their behavior? Take a look at how soon hurtful or wrong or harmful actions occur again...or worse, the same actions occur...and that should begin to give you a clue how important you really are to that person and the level of importance and hurt/disappointment/wrong they accord to their actions. Sort of like the "fool/hurt/anger you once...shame on me, fool/hurt/anger you again...shame on you". As for forgetting...I may forgive but as others have noted, I don't completely forget. I try to set it aside or put it away, once I have dealt with it, so that I can relate to this person if I want whatever relationship I have with them to go on. But a wall begins to be built.

LaTigresse -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 12:27:41 PM)
And the delightful thing about forgiveness is that, you don't even have to be Christian (in any traditional sense) to do it. For me, it's more about accepting a person is just being who they are, all of them, and determining based upon that, how much you want them to influence your life. Primarily your emotional life.

LadyConstanze -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 12:34:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse And the delightful thing about forgiveness is that, you don't even have to be Christian (in any traditional sense) to do it. For me, it's more about accepting a person is just being who they are, all of them, and determining based upon that, how much you want them to influence your life. Primarily your emotional life. I absolutely agree, I am not a Christian though I do think the core message of "Do unto others..." is fine and worthy of following. To keep on hating somebody who wronged me, that's giving the person far too much influence over my life, it doesn't mean I have to turn the other cheek or that I can't get even, but usually it's not even worth getting even, the best revenge is living a nice life.

Jaybeee -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 12:47:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse And the delightful thing about forgiveness is that, you don't even have to be Christian (in any traditional sense) to do it. For me, it's more about accepting a person is just being who they are, all of them, and determining based upon that, how much you want them to influence your life. Primarily your emotional life. I absolutely agree, I am not a Christian though I do think the core message of "Do unto others..." is fine and worthy of following. To keep on hating somebody who wronged me, that's giving the person far too much influence over my life, it doesn't mean I have to turn the other cheek or that I can't get even, but usually it's not even worth getting even, the best revenge is living a nice life. Very definitely. I don't think the satisfaction of active revenge is one to always be dispensed with, but it really should be a "Spare moment" thing. Anything more consumes the kind of time that cuts into the pleasure from the rest of life. It's much more effective on the cost-reward scale to not take revenge, than to take it.

Kirata -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 1:42:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee quote: ORIGINAL: Rule It hasn't got anything to do with attractiveness. Actually, that's the central tenet of narcissism. Vanity, pride, EGO... There appears to me to be precious little connection between vanity and pride, and attractiveness. [:D] K.

rulemylife -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 1:49:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama You mentioned Narcissists in 3 separate posts so I am sharing this which actually works with the narcissists in my life. (I spent 5 years wondering why Conscious Communication was ineffective with my narc.) FIVE DON'T DO'S How to Avoid the Wrath of the Narcissist 1. Never disagree with the narcissist or contradict him; 2. Never offer him any intimacy; 3. Look awed by whatever attribute matters to him (for instance: by his professional achievements or by his good looks, or by his success with women and so on); 4. Never remind him of life out there and if you do, connect it somehow to his sense of grandiosity; 5. Do not make any comment, which might directly or indirectly impinge on his self-image, omnipotence, judgment, omniscience, skills, capabilities, professional record, or even omnipresence. Bad sentences start with: "I think you overlooked ... made a mistake here ... you don't know ... do you know ... you were not here yesterday so ... you cannot ... you should ... (perceived as rude imposition, narcissists react very badly to restrictions placed on their freedom) ... I (never mention the fact that you are a separate, independent entity, narcissists regard others as extensions of their selves, their internalization processes were screwed up and they did not differentiate properly) ..." You get the gist of it. The TEN DO'S How to Make your Narcissist Dependent on You If you INSIST on Staying with Him http://samvak.tripod.com/abusefamily19.html For the record, neither the writer nor I are recommending close ties with narcissists but sometimes one can't simply cut them off. I notice the writer refers to "him". I don't know whether that is meant generically or not, but trust me the her version exists. I really think more than the male version.

kalikshama -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 2:20:49 PM)
Jaybeee, You are using Narcissism as per the Greek myth. The rest of us are using it in the personality disorder sense of the word. Diagnostic criteria (DSM-IV): The essential feature of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (either in fantasy or actual behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy that begins by early adulthood and is present in a variety of situations and environments. In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms: - Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) - Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love - Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions). - Rarely acknowledges mistakes and/or imperfections - Requires excessive admiration - Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations - Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends - Lacks empathy: is unwilling or unable to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others. - Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her - Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitude.

kalikshama -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 2:23:58 PM)
quote: I notice the writer refers to "him". I don't know whether that is meant generically or not, but trust me the her version exists. I really think more than the male version. While this may be true for you anecdotally, statistically narcissism is more prevalent in males. Collarchat would be a lot less fun if less people used anecdotes. KK Demographics DSM-IV-TR states that 2% to 16% of the clinical population and slightly less than 1% of the general population of the United States suffers from NPD. Between 50% and 75% of those diagnosed with NPD are males. Little is known about the prevalence of NPD across racial and ethnic groups. Gender issues The high preponderance of male patients in studies of narcissism has prompted researchers to explore the effects of gender roles on this particular personality disorder. Some have speculated that the gender imbalance in NPD results from society's disapproval of self-centered and exploitative behavior in women, who are typically socialized to nurture, please, and generally focus their attention on others. Others have remarked that the imbalance is more apparent than real, and that it reflects a basically sexist definition of narcissism. These researchers suggest that definitions of the disorder should be rewritten in future editions of DSM to account for ways in which narcissistic personality traits manifest differently in men and in women.

Jaybeee -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 2:44:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama Jaybeee, You are using Narcissism as per the Greek myth. The rest of us are using it in the personality disorder sense of the word. Here's the definition I'm using; World English Dictionary narcissism or narcism (ˈnɑːsɪˌsɪzəm, ˈnɑːˌsɪzəm) — n 1. an exceptional interest in or admiration for oneself, esp one's physical appearance.

tazzygirl -> RE: a question for Christians (12/3/2010 8:28:16 PM)
nar·cis·sism /ˈnɑrsəˌsɪzɛm/ Show Spelled [nahr-suh-siz-em] Show IPA –noun 1. inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity. 2. Psychoanalysis . erotic gratification derived from admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes, being a normal condition at the infantile level of personality development. Try posting a full definition next time. But, since you cant seem to quite understand that narcissism is a psychological disorder as well, and thats typically how people view that condition... Medical Dictionary nar·cis·sism definition Pronunciation: /ˈnär-sə-ˌsiz-əm/ Function: n 1 : love of or sexual desire for one's own body 2 : the state or stage of development in psychoanalytic theory in which there is considerable erotic interest in one's own body and ego and which in abnormal forms persists through fixation or reappears through regression Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2007 Merriam-Webster, Inc. Cite This Source narcissism nar·cis·sism (när'sĭ-sĭz'əm) or nar·cism (när'sĭz'əm) n. 1.Excessive love or admiration of oneself. 2.Erotic pleasure derived from contemplation or admiration of one's own body or self, especially as a fixation on or a regression to an infantile stage of development. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- nar'cis·sist n. nar'cis·sis'tic adj. nar'cis·sis'ti·cal·ly adv. The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. Cite This Source Cultural Dictionary narcissism [( nahr -suh-siz-uhm)] A consuming self-absorption or self-love; a type of egotism. Narcissists constantly assess their appearance, desires, feelings, and abilities. The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Cite This Source http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/narcissism

Jaybeee -> RE: a question for Christians (12/4/2010 11:49:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl nar·cis·sism /ˈnɑrsəˌsɪzɛm/ Show Spelled [nahr-suh-siz-em] Show IPA –noun 1. inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity. 2. Psychoanalysis . erotic gratification derived from admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes, being a normal condition at the infantile level of personality development. Try posting a full definition next time. But, since you cant seem to quite understand that narcissism is a psychological disorder as well, and thats typically how people view that condition... Oh I know what people ALLEGE are disorders. But to define disorder, you must first define order.

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