RE: Republican Death Panels (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/4/2010 1:00:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

"Of course, there is the Arizona Prison system which is contracted to FOR PROFIT companies, which means that Arizona pays MORE for housing prisoners."

Your conclusion is totally unsupported.



Gee Truckin, whatever happened to that free enterprise mentality of yours?




kinkbound -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/4/2010 1:01:52 PM)



quote:

In other words it's ok to bankrupt your state in the short term to save a few, and let many more die in the long term when you're completely out of money for any treatment....gotcha.


Where would you draw the line between who gets saved and who dies?

quote:

Nobody is saved, everyone dies.Be it from lack of medical care to some moron driving drunk.

The argument is stupid to begin with, nobody survives life, and life isn't fair.


In your rebuttal to Lucy (shown at the very top of this post) you surmised that it is okay with her if she bankrupts her state in the short term to save a few, at the expense of many other lives after the bankruptcy. Your "gotcha" conclusion clearly indicates that you disagree with saving the lives of expensive patients, at the potential expense of many others.

When I asked you a direct and relevant question regarding your thoughts, you shifted away from the topic and into an irrevelant "The argument is stupid. Everyone dies. No one is saved. Life isn't fair..."

Would you please clarify your position? Are you now saying that you wouldn't draw the line ANYWHERE, because the state shouldn't save ANYONE?





peacefulplace -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/4/2010 1:05:50 PM)

~FR~

I read the article that Animus referenced in his initial post. The most profound sadness of this is that politics has rendered the lives of many people to sound bites. While there are many ethical issues surrounding medical procedures that might or might not work, it is completely unacceptable that, in the United States of America, we think it is acceptable to debate the sort of health care someone deserves based solely on his/her ability to pay the thousands and thousands these procedures often cost. I cannot believe this is even a debatable point among moral people.




AnimusRex -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/4/2010 1:22:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulplace
I cannot believe this is even a debatable point among moral people.


It isn't. But we are not talking about moral people here; there is a callousness, a self-centeredness that rises to the level of the legal definition of "depraved indifference" to human life.




KenDckey -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/4/2010 1:44:20 PM)

OK   Everyone has been asking about an optional transplant.   How about cornieal?  lack of it doesn't kill but with it will hopefrully raise quality of life




jlf1961 -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/4/2010 1:48:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

"Of course, there is the Arizona Prison system which is contracted to FOR PROFIT companies, which means that Arizona pays MORE for housing prisoners."

Your conclusion is totally unsupported.




Actually, having been employed at one time by Wackenhut Security, Wackenhut Corrections Division, working at a FOR PROFIT private prison, I was paid an average of $9 more an hour than state employees doing the same job. That cost was passed on to the state that had signed the contract.

Prisoners are kept on a per diem rate, again charged to the state. The cost of upkeep on the facilities are also part of that contract. It does not take a genius to figure out that the company would not be doing that if it were not making a profit, and thus they have to be making more than the cost of housing the prisoner.

While it is true that most states that save money with Private Prisons do so by mixing state and private institutions, however there is problems with Private Prisons, or have you forgotten that 3 convicted killers escaped from a private prison in Arizona, and the escape was not detected for about 12 hours?




KenDckey -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/4/2010 1:55:44 PM)

LOL   I live jsut a few miles from that prison.   They are looking for new hires to replace the idiots they fired orver that incident.

The state is also working on getting the prison to pay for the prisoner recovery costs.   Hope they go for a profit on it




popeye1250 -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/4/2010 7:39:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And the propensity toward the gilb is why any real discussion will never happen. I understand his point--and the faulty either/or premise on which he built it.

Rex's point, of course, is the irony of the distortion when Palin was singing this tune.

Seems the key has changed.


Music, "faulty either/or premise?"
I don't want my govt doing any foreign aid, it shouldn't be either/or it should only be "either." Period.
I just don't want my taxdollars being spent on that type of thing.
If I "agreed" with foreign aid would my opinion then be, "not faulty?"




Musicmystery -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/4/2010 8:24:10 PM)

Hence the fallacious premise.

What happened to you? Have you had some accident, surgery, new pain killers? You've gone from this eccentric but interesting and reasonable person to this ranting maniac making no sense more often then not, and all in the last six months or so.




tazzygirl -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/4/2010 9:31:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

OK   Everyone has been asking about an optional transplant.   How about cornieal?  lack of it doesn't kill but with it will hopefrully raise quality of life


How optional would you consider your eyesight? Mine is pretty damn important to me and to my bill collectors.




KenDckey -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/5/2010 4:49:35 AM)

Tazzy   We were talk about life threatening not quality of life.   Your creditors aren't going to kill you if you can't see.   MAJOR difference here.   The complaint all along has been that all transplants are life threatening.   I am only injecting that isn't ture.




tazzygirl -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/5/2010 5:32:39 AM)

quote:

Similarly, Randy Shepherd, who ran a plumbing business, told NPR that his heart muscle is weakening as a result of the rheumatic fever he had when he was much younger. AHCCCS was the only heath insurance he could get because of that pre-existing condition.


Hardly optional, but this is what they cut.

quote:

Without funding from the state, Felix needed to raise $200,000 to pay for the liver transplant. The liver was directly donated to Felix from a family friend who died suddenly Monday. But because Felix's family could not raise enough to cover the cost of the operation, the liver went to another patient.


Last i heard, medically, you cannot live without a liver.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20023102-10391704.html

quote:

PHOENIX - A Phoenix man awaiting a bone-marrow transplant got good news Friday -- word of two donors who are possible matches.

But new budget cuts for Arizona's Medicaid program also take effect Friday, and they eliminate coverage for many types of transplants, including the lifesaving one Mark Price needs.


Sucks to be you, dude.

quote:

Besides bone-marrow transplants involving non-relatives, coverage for lung transplants and some heart and liver transplants has been eliminated.

Also eliminated is coverage for occupational and speech therapy, insulin pumps, hearing aids and emergency dental care. There's also no more funding for wellness exams, but mammograms, pap smears and colonoscopies remain covered.


Oh yeah, insulin pumps... bad medicine.

quote:

Arizona's cut of optional services will save about $5 million for the fiscal year that started in July, said Jennifer Carusetta, an AHCCCS spokeswoman. An additional $15 million of federal funding provided on a 3-to-1 matching basis will be lost.

The reductions in transplant coverage means deaths "could be a possible outcome if somebody is unable to obtain a transplant," she acknowledged. "You can't take away a benefit without somebody being affected."

Carusetta said the cutbacks could affect up to 100 people who may need transplants, but only about 15 percent of patients are likely to get a transplant in any event. Schriber estimated AHCCCS has funded five to 10 bone-marrow transplants a year. The procedure can cost $250,000 or more, he said.

"But if they're in the situation like Mr. Price, those are people who have no options," Schriber said. "They will die without this."


I could go on and on... and i probably should

As far as corneal transplants being "optional", i personally believe you are full of shit. The costs associated with training a sight-seeing person to deal with their blindness is staggering in itself. The notion that vision is an optional benefit to life.... lol. But, you go ahead and believe that. Also believe that this kind of transplants is one of the cheapest and one of the most successful types of transplants performed.




flcouple2009 -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/5/2010 7:49:59 AM)

Oh Tazzy come now, a corneal transplant is completely optional. 

That would be right up until the moment in became Ken's eyes of course.




Moonhead -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/5/2010 8:44:54 AM)

I just hope Ken isn't into the libertarian thang myself: if he's arguing that vision is optional because people don't need to see, then he's going to have a bit of a hard time explaining who's going to rehabilitate the broke and unemployable blind apart from the evil tax fattened federal government...




AnimusRex -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/5/2010 3:35:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I just hope Ken isn't into the libertarian thang myself: if he's arguing that vision is optional because people don't need to see, then he's going to have a bit of a hard time explaining who's going to rehabilitate the broke and unemployable blind apart from the evil tax fattened federal government...


Are there no prisons?
Are there no workhouses?




rulemylife -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/5/2010 3:49:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Tazzy   We were talk about life threatening not quality of life.   Your creditors aren't going to kill you if you can't see.   MAJOR difference here.   The complaint all along has been that all transplants are life threatening.   I am only injecting that isn't ture.


Are you fucking shitting me?

You think eyesight is just a "quality of life" issue?




KenDckey -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/5/2010 4:02:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Tazzy   We were talk about life threatening not quality of life.   Your creditors aren't going to kill you if you can't see.   MAJOR difference here.   The complaint all along has been that all transplants are life threatening.   I am only injecting that isn't ture.


Are you fucking shitting me?

You think eyesight is just a "quality of life" issue?



Yup   I didn't throw money to the beggers when I was in Ethiopia either. 67-69




rulemylife -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/5/2010 4:08:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Tazzy   We were talk about life threatening not quality of life.   Your creditors aren't going to kill you if you can't see.   MAJOR difference here.   The complaint all along has been that all transplants are life threatening.   I am only injecting that isn't ture.


Are you fucking shitting me?

You think eyesight is just a "quality of life" issue?



Yup   I didn't throw money to the beggers when I was in Ethiopia either. 67-69



Good for you!!!!!!

[sm=applause.gif]

We wouldn't want to break your impressive string of self-interest.




Lucylastic -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/5/2010 4:30:56 PM)

unarmed person...not fair chaps!!!
snickers





KenDckey -> RE: Republican Death Panels (12/5/2010 4:48:48 PM)

Ahhhhhhh Personal attacks.   Don't you love them.   I was asked a specific question to which I answered with one word.   Then as a matter of what i see as explanation I added a phrase hoping to stimulate conversation.   Guess that didn't work.   For my trouble I get a personal attack.   Someone run out of argument?

Oh and the reason I didn't give anyone money was because I saw people being thrown off a 3000 foot cliff because of the one time I did it.   Didn't like that concept.   It goes to narrowmindedness in my opinion.   Look for the broader issue.  Please




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