RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic

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NuevaVida -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/8/2010 10:29:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub NuevaVida, Thank you for your reply. There are two points, (the parts that i bolded) that i would like to comment on. One is the use of the word benevolence in regards to punishment, that is not usually a correlation that is made. i know that you used it in a comparative terms, but i still found the use of the word very interesting. Hi heartfeltsub, I used the term benevolence because in my mind it applies, not just by comparison to what I have personally experienced before, which some might find excessive, but in comparison to what I generally read or hear in regards to punishments. I am not beaten when I've lacked judgment. The one time I failed to tell him something because of fear (we were still fairly new and I didn't trust him yet) he was loving and understanding yet put me through an exercise which sealed my ability to talk for a given period of time (since I had chosen not to talk when I should have, I would not be allowed to talk now), while explaining to me his thoughts about what happened, which totally surprised me (he wasn't angry or even frustrated). The period of time my mouth was "sequestered" was pretty short, but long enough to leave a strong imprint in my heart. quote: The second and i hope i haven't come off this way, is even though the idea of having a punishment dynamic, in the past caused me fear, i hope nothing i have said gives the impression that i think one is better than another across the board. i have found most of the responses, very helpful and thought provoking. You did not come across that way at all, and I'm glad you said this so I could clarify that it was not you I was speaking of, but other posts which were critical of dominants who punish (calling them lazy, etc.).

leadership527 -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/8/2010 11:06:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub i have seen in a number of "Dominant" profiles how strongly they stress how strict they are, which seems to place a punishment dynamic in an entirely different light than how it is implemented in your relationship. Well OK. Now I need to ask. I've been avoiding this thread because we also don't have a punishment dynamic so my viewpoint isn't helpful. But I was scanning anyway and saw the above quote. What, exactly, does "strictness" have to do with a punishment dynamic? As I read the definitions of the word "strict", I'm getting a sense that it talks about how much deviance is allowed from the desired behavior. In that sense, I'm WAY strict. I just don't find a punishment dynamic necessary or helpful in order to gain that level of compliance. One might even argue that by demanding obedience the first time, every time without a punishment loop built-in I'm more strict. I never even allowed the original infraction much less any follow-ups to it. I would argue that "strictness" is orthogonal to both authority and punishment. It's just a measure of allowable tolerances.

heartfeltsub -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/9/2010 1:41:28 PM)
Thank you NuevaVida for your reply. What you have described as your Dominant/Master's response seems very wise and would fall in my brain under the category of discipline not punishment, because i think i equate punishment with physical punishment. i don't think i am the only one that makes that correlation, it seems to me, and this was going to part of my answer to Leadership's reply, that a great many people i know who call themselves Dominants correlate being really strict with having a very heavy handed physical punishment dynamic. Thank you again for your reply and for your clarification. i want you to know that i always enjoy your comments, they have very insightful to me on many occassions. heartfelt

heartfeltsub -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/9/2010 1:45:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub i have seen in a number of "Dominant" profiles how strongly they stress how strict they are, which seems to place a punishment dynamic in an entirely different light than how it is implemented in your relationship. Well OK. Now I need to ask. I've been avoiding this thread because we also don't have a punishment dynamic so my viewpoint isn't helpful. But I was scanning anyway and saw the above quote. What, exactly, does "strictness" have to do with a punishment dynamic? As I read the definitions of the word "strict", I'm getting a sense that it talks about how much deviance is allowed from the desired behavior. In that sense, I'm WAY strict. I just don't find a punishment dynamic necessary or helpful in order to gain that level of compliance. One might even argue that by demanding obedience the first time, every time without a punishment loop built-in I'm more strict. I never even allowed the original infraction much less any follow-ups to it. I would argue that "strictness" is orthogonal to both authority and punishment. It's just a measure of allowable tolerances. To answer your question, Leadership, many people i know who call themselves Dominant, many of the profiles that i have run into here on CM, when i have talked with them, the first thing that they mention after being strict is how heavily punished a submissive would be for breaking any of their rules. There seems to be a correlation in the minds of more than just myself between strict and heavy handed in physical punishment. i have seen it repeatedly. As you stated one can be strict without employing a physical punishment dynamic, but i think that may not be the norm. Thank you for your reply, heartfelt

DesFIP -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/9/2010 1:55:07 PM)
In theory Jeff, you're correct. In actuality it works out the way heartfelt said. Strict in a profile means an excuse for heavy sadism. Those types manufacture excuses to indulge themselves but don't acknowledge that it makes them hard, they need to have a 'reason' so they can still think of themselves as good guys, but that it's all her fault, she brought it all on herself. In actuality the better you obeyed, the more they look for the simplest error for an excuse. Until you give up even trying to please them and give up on them, which is why they're back on looking yet again. In a group on fetlife I saw an example of this. Man was a Lakers fan, his gf a Celtic. She showed up at a bar for a group of friends to watch the Lakers/Celtic match. She has never been told that she was not permitted to root for her team or wear a jersey supporting it. So first he spanked her to tears on the pool table while all the people in the bar watched. He boasted about this, about how strict he was. And didn't see any correlation between how he acted and why the relationship ended.

NuevaVida -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/9/2010 8:50:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub Thank you NuevaVida for your reply. What you have described as your Dominant/Master's response seems very wise and would fall in my brain under the category of discipline not punishment, because i think i equate punishment with physical punishment. Grins You don't know me well. Not being able to speak for half an hour (mouth was duct taped) was absolutely punishment!! LOL I'm a talker. I talk talk talk. A lot. Poor man. When the tape was removed I made up for lost time. [8D] But yes, I suppose this could waiver on the punishment/discipline line. I don't always equate punishment with physical pain, though. In the past, punishments have included being locked in a closet, ignored, writing a gazillion sentences, being humiliated, and so on, in addition to beatings. quote: i don't think i am the only one that makes that correlation, it seems to me, and this was going to part of my answer to Leadership's reply, that a great many people i know who call themselves Dominants correlate being really strict with having a very heavy handed physical punishment dynamic. I know "beatings" are stereotypical punishments but it really depends on the personality and make-up of the dominant/master. quote: Thank you again for your reply and for your clarification. i want you to know that i always enjoy your comments, they have very insightful to me on many occassions. heartfelt Thank you, heartfelt. You provide very interesting questions!

NuevaVida -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/9/2010 8:56:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP In a group on fetlife I saw an example of this. Man was a Lakers fan, his gf a Celtic. She showed up at a bar for a group of friends to watch the Lakers/Celtic match. She has never been told that she was not permitted to root for her team or wear a jersey supporting it. So first he spanked her to tears on the pool table while all the people in the bar watched. He boasted about this, about how strict he was. And didn't see any correlation between how he acted and why the relationship ended. Did she ask?? I ask this because the man recently took me to a Raiders game and they were playing Pittsburgh. I like Pittsburgh. I tolerate the Raiders! Well, I'm smart enough to know not to wear ANY other teams colors at a Raider game, but still I asked him about it. If I know he's going to be around and his team is playing against a team I like, I always ask him about it. Seems to me the couple you wrote about had communication issues as an underlying problem.

leadership527 -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/10/2010 1:12:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida Seems to me the couple you wrote about had communication issues as an underlying problem. Not necessarily. Carol knows NOTHING about sports and sports culture. It wouldn't even occur to her that there might be some sort of breach of faith by wearing the opposing team colors. She might do it just to root for the underdog or because she liked the colors. Never discount just plain ignorance chuckles Oh, and Des and Heartfelt... ewwwwwwwwww. Now that you mention it, I've seen enough of that too. I shouldn't have needed to ask the question. I sometimes get lost in reality and need to be reeled back into fantasy land where such things make sense.

NuevaVida -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/10/2010 7:19:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida Seems to me the couple you wrote about had communication issues as an underlying problem. Not necessarily. Carol knows NOTHING about sports and sports culture. It wouldn't even occur to her that there might be some sort of breach of faith by wearing the opposing team colors. She might do it just to root for the underdog or because she liked the colors. Never discount just plain ignorance chuckles I'm not talking about accidentally wearing the opposing teams colors (like me, coming out of his room in a teal sweater on our way to a Raiders vs. Seattle game - in which he pointed me right back into the bedroom and told me to change). I am talking about intentionally wearing the opposing teams colors, because that's the team you choose to cheer for. I'm guessing if you like the team enough to own a jersey of theirs to wear (much different than Carol, not knowing a thing about sports, etc.), then you might know that sport enough to know your owner's team is their opposition. Especially if it's the Lakers! [;)]

daddysprop247 -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/10/2010 7:37:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida I'm guessing if you like the team enough to own a jersey of theirs to wear (much different than Carol, not knowing a thing about sports, etc.), then you might know that sport enough to know your owner's team is their opposition. Especially if it's the Lakers! [;)] this reminds me of the time we were throwing a Superbowl party at our home, one which required everyone to wear a jersey. not having one, Daddy took me shopping in the boys' section of an athletic store (smaller, tighter jerseys) and said that i could pick whichever one i liked. now my knowledge of football is minimal at best, beyond of course knowing my Master's fave team (Redskins). but in that section of the store the only 'skins jerseys were white, and i prefer the burgundy. so that was a no-go. but then i saw it...a pretty black and gold jersey...i had to have it! Daddy okays it and says, "why are you picking a Saints jersey?" and my response was, "because they have the prettiest colors of course!" He just shook his head at my hopelessness. [:D]

cloudboy -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/10/2010 7:46:25 AM)
quote: my Master's fave team (Redskins). There's a punishment dynamic right there.

LadyPact -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/10/2010 10:05:43 AM)
Good Morning heartfelt, I've very much enjoyed the thread that you've started here. I think people have given some wonderful answers to your question. Most of what I would say on the subject I've either said before or has already been covered by some of the earlier contributions. What I want to say to you instead is that it's rather obvious that you have reservations about what would be termed as a punishment dynamic. I can get that. People come with their own learned behaviors, thoughts, and negative experiences that have been formed. The questions really is, with the right person and methods, can you get past that? Here's something that I really want you to consider. Like most terms that kinky people have 'stolen' from our non kinky counterparts, much of it is up to personal interpretation. What I call punishment, someone else might call discipline, and another might call corrective action. Also, what I consider reasonable someone else might not and another person think that I am too soft. There's a whole category of folks who think punishment should be a common occurrence or use it as a code word for an excuse for their fun with S/m and a whole other bunch of stuff mixed in there. The thing is, you can't just listen to the word and apply only your own interpretation. Obviously, there's something linked in there for you which brings up something that isn't what you can deal with. The question is, does your definition line up with the other person that you're dealing with? You are seeing it as this big bad terrible thing and that may not really be the case. Rather, I'd encourage you to discuss what the term really means to a potential partner. It may not really be what you think it is and the only way to know is how the other person is applying the term. Best of luck, as always.

heartfeltsub -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/10/2010 12:28:27 PM)
LadyPact, thank you for your reply. To answer your questions, yes given the ephipany on why i was always afraid of a physical punishment dynamic, i think with the right person i could handle one. If the person that i end up with wants a physical punishment dynamic, my intention is to explain my past and then put it his hands to decide how to proceed, trusting him to do what he believes is best. i don't choose people poorly, i hope that doesn't sound like a boastful statement. i have chosen two men in my life to this point, one i was married to for 23 years, who was and still is a good man and another who i submitted to for almost 4 years, and is still to this day my best friend, also a very good man. So if i don't pick anyone but a good man, then i should be able to trust him to decide how to proceed is a physical punishment dynamic is important to him in light of my history. Hopefully that makes sense. To sum up, i am not scared of them anymore. Finding out why i was afraid, eliminated a great deal of the fear. You are very correct that everyone has their own definition and clarification of definitions are very important. The only man i can see me ending up with, is a man that i can talk to freely and openly. Thank you again for your reply, heartfelt

heartfeltsub -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/10/2010 12:30:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: my Master's fave team (Redskins). There's a punishment dynamic right there. Lol, i was thinking the same thing. Patriot's fan.

leadership527 -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/10/2010 1:13:55 PM)
great post LP. Heartfelt: I think that's basically the ultimate answer... trust. It ALWAYS comes down to that for Carol and I. It is NEVER about "would she willingly come to harm at my hand to demonstrate her submission". Again, my favorite thread of all time... "Would you strip in a restaurant" ... is what clearly highlighted that for myself and Carol. Almost everyone on that thread saw it as "would you go to jail for your owner?" We saw it as, "Do you trust your owner to not get you into jail -- despite the evidence of your own senses?" It's a very different question with a very different answer... at least for Carol. I think the punishment thing and pretty much all other commands fall into the same category. I mean let's get realistic for a moment. Either your owner is doing things which are ultimately harmful to you or he is not. You either believe that he will keep you safe or you don't. Overall, this is why I hate discussing authority dynamics in theory. In theory, ANYTHING can happen. In theory, some random dom absolutely can and will do some randomly stupid shit. But exactly as you pointed out, you're not going to hook up with some random dom. What was agirl's line on that "strip in the restaurant thread?... something like... I didn't pick an idiot for an owner. So amazingly enough, the bills get paid and the children get fed and nobody goes to jail even if I do obey him. That, I think, is the ultimate truth of any extreme authority dynamic. The owner is either competent and capable or he is not.. period. Choose wisely and extend trust gradually. All of which is, I think, exactly where you've gotten to :) ~Jeff

DesFIP -> RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic (12/11/2010 7:43:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP In a group on fetlife I saw an example of this. Man was a Lakers fan, his gf a Celtic. She showed up at a bar for a group of friends to watch the Lakers/Celtic match. She has never been told that she was not permitted to root for her team or wear a jersey supporting it. So first he spanked her to tears on the pool table while all the people in the bar watched. He boasted about this, about how strict he was. And didn't see any correlation between how he acted and why the relationship ended. Did she ask?? I ask this because the man recently took me to a Raiders game and they were playing Pittsburgh. I like Pittsburgh. I tolerate the Raiders! Well, I'm smart enough to know not to wear ANY other teams colors at a Raider game, but still I asked him about it. If I know he's going to be around and his team is playing against a team I like, I always ask him about it. Seems to me the couple you wrote about had communication issues as an underlying problem. Absolutely. But at the same time he didn't bother to ask her if she was a Celtics fan. It goes both ways. But a mistake the first time should be pointed out. "You want to wear your Celtics jersey, stay in your apartment to watch the game from now on". Not public humiliation, which she had not agreed to, in punishment for breaking a rule she did not know existed. And she wasn't his sub, just his girlfriend. But he's a spanko, so he used this as an excuse to do what turned him on. No communication, no discussion, no consent. And he thinks this makes him a strict dom to a girl who had never agreed to submit to him. Unfortunately I see this attitude correlating strictness and indulging his sadism a lot. Also with breaking hard limits as a punishment. And again, the guys who do this don't understand why they aren't still with the woman, why she left him. They blame it on her being a bad sub always.

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