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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/6/2010 11:11:33 AM

Moonhead

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Fair enough.

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/6/2010 3:58:18 PM

lickenforyou

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No science will ever disprove religion. I will paraphrase a quote that I heard once, but cannot remember from who...

"Religion will always hide in the shadows where science has yet to shine a light"

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/6/2010 4:08:54 PM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

No science will ever disprove religion. I will paraphrase a quote that I heard once, but cannot remember from who...

"Religion will always hide in the shadows where science has yet to shine a light"

"Religion will always hide in the shadows where science will not shine a light" as science can be seen many ways and it is the interests of many to dissprove that thing that people believe in because it does not bear scientific proof

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 12/6/2010 4:09:19 PM >

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/6/2010 4:25:20 PM

lickenforyou

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

No science will ever disprove religion. I will paraphrase a quote that I heard once, but cannot remember from who...

"Religion will always hide in the shadows where science has yet to shine a light"

"Religion will always hide in the shadows where science will not shine a light" as science can be seen many ways and it is the interests of many to dissprove that thing that people believe in because it does not bear scientific proof

Science can not "be seen many ways" science is neutral. Some people may try to use science to disprove the existence of the supernatural. But, science can't disprove faith.
If you want to believe in something that there is no proof to indicate that it exists, that is your right. And, that is exactly what is meant by the quote.

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 3:09:46 AM

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Scientists have been murdered in the name of religion, religious people have been murdered in the name of religion but I don't know of any religions folk that have been murdered by scientists.

My problem with religion is, it seems to control the masses. Christians live under the fear of God and a burning hell It wasn't so long ago in history that the most despicable torture techniques were invented and used by Christians.
There is nothing uniform IMO about religion simply because there are so many of them and almost all of them are in disagreement with one another. People choose and change their religion like a pick and mix shop. Its fashionable at the moment to be Buddhist or Shamanic but next month Hinduism could be the new flavor. More and more people in the UK are turning back towards Paganism, the religion of the UK before the Christians got here and burnt them as witches or black magicians. Christianity was a product of fear and as far as I'm concerned, has out stayed its shelf life.

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 5:49:45 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Scientists have been murdered in the name of religion, religious people have been murdered in the name of religion but I don't know of any religions folk that have been murdered by scientists.

An argument can be made that during the Holocaust many people of Jewish faith died at the hands of scientists.

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 6:48:00 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

I think many of the " Science proves God is Dead " makes a conscious decision to refute the scientific advances that actually support Biblical word. Dead Sea Scroll, Pilates Stone, Shroud of Turin, the wind set down effect, which explains the scietific reason for the parting of the Red Sea, the stone fragment found on an archeological dig, mentioning and confirming King David ruled over Israel, and many other things.

There is a wonderful book called The Miracle of Exodus. It is written by a scientist who discovered scientif explanation for Biblical references.

It's also interesting to note that in Leviticus we are instructed to wash our hands under running water. In medicine, it wasn't until the 1840's that MD's began using running water, until that point they used a bowl of water. And we all know Semmelweis was mocked, shunned from the medical community for his discovery of the benefit of handwashing to prevent pupural fever. Also interesting In Genesis God commands that all males be circumsized on the 8th day. Science has dicovered that Vit K and prothrombin are at their highest levels on the 8th day of life. Vit K and prothrombin are clotting factors. Co incidence ? Aethists will say yes, but is it really ? Those are just a couple, but there are many.

I think it is important to understand that Science asks the question " How ? " and religion asks the question " Why ? " and that the answers to each will be different, as they are different questions, but the answers can live harmoneously.

mbmbn

I dont disagree with your closing sentiment, but finding natural explanations for "miracles" and scientific support for customs/practices doesnt in any way further the argument for god, in fact it weakens it.

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 6:54:03 AM

allthatjaz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Scientists have been murdered in the name of religion, religious people have been murdered in the name of religion but I don't know of any religions folk that have been murdered by scientists.

An argument can be made that during the Holocaust many people of Jewish faith died at the hands of scientists.

Thats true tazzygirl but it wasn't the scientists that got together and decided to kill people according to their faith. They just took advantage of something already going on.

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 12/7/2010 7:01:57 AM >

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 7:38:21 AM

tazzygirl

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http://www.humanitas-international.org/holocaust/drtrial3.htm

But our proof will show that a quite different and even more sinister objective runs like a red thread through these hideous researches. We will show that in some instances the true object of these experiments was not how to rescue or to cure, but how to destroy and kill. The sterilization experiments were, it is clear, purely destructive in purpose. The prisoners at Buchenwald who were shot with poisoned bullets were not guinea pigs to test an antidote for the poison; their murderers really wanted to know how quickly the poison would kill. This destructive objective is not superficially as apparent in the other experiments, but we will show that it was often there.

Mankind has not heretofore felt the need of a word to denominate the science of how to kill prisoners most rapidly and subjugated people in large numbers. This case and these defendants have created this gruesome question for the lexicographer. For the moment we will christen this macabre science "thanatology," the science of producing death. The thanatological knowledge, derived in part from these experiments, supplied the techniques for genocide, a policy of the Third Reich, exemplified in the "euthanasia" program and in the widespread slaughter of Jews, gypsies, Poles, and Russians. This policy of mass extermination could not have been so effectively carried out without the active participation of German medical scientists.

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 7:49:07 AM

chiaThePet

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And on the eighth day God rolled his eyes and commanded;

"This is the last time I shall send the humans out for Spicey Shrimp Arsenic from Wongs.

It took them like eterrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrnity to find the place for Christ's sake!"

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 8:33:23 AM

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It goes to show that any one of us have it in us to be barbaric. Did those scientists kill by experimentation in the name of science or to further Hitlers achievements? Lets not forget that Hitler modeled his government after the Roman Catholic church, the same church that killed 68 million people in the Inquisition. At the end of last century, when more documents were being declassified and Russia was opening up its records, the Pope was forced to make public, its involvement in supporting Hitler.

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 8:40:14 AM

tazzygirl

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Ah, but when the same argument is applied to religion, the arguments begin. I explained the beginnings of the Inquisition.

The Spanish Inquisition was founded in 1478 by Ferdinand and Isabella to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in their kingdoms and was under the direct control of the Spanish monarchy. It was not definitively abolished until 1834, during the reign of Isabel II.

........

Originally politically motivated, it aimed to use religion to foster national unity but later became the object of Protestant anti-Catholic propaganda which "painted Spaniards as barbarians who ravished women and sodomized young boys"[1]. It was the secular authorities that punished those found guilty, so the Inquisition may best be seen an example of how religion can be used by the State to promote its agenda, rather than "a metaphor of the Church's 'dictatorial, controlling, damning' pronouncements".

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Spanish_Inquisition

ETA the link

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/7/2010 8:41:00 AM >

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 9:28:06 AM

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I think that's organised religion in a nutshell, tazzy: it's a political tool first, and the rest is just a load of blather to justify that.

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 9:29:30 AM

tazzygirl

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Then lets agree to seperate organized religion from what most of us here practice, shall we? Then we wont get into these types of arguments. Just because someone is religious does not mean they agree with, or even follow, all the tenents of the religion they follow.

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 9:34:48 AM

Moonhead

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Are you sure? I can see where you're coming from, but if somebody doesn't agree with all of the tenents of the Religion they claim to follow, then they're some sort of apostate or heretic with no real right to describe themselves in those terms.
(It would, admittedly, simplify things a lot if twats like Fred Phelps were stopped from calling themselves Christians...)

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 9:44:55 AM

tazzygirl

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You cant stop someone from labling themselves christian than you can stop anyone from labling themselves Dominant.. lol

Someone once made a post about why religious people bounce from religion to religion.. and this is part of the reason why. Humans within the church make the rules. Those humans, such as in the case of the Inquisition, are not always right. a person seeking a religion can easily recognize that, say "pass" and move onwards. That doesnt make them non-religious, just makes them also human with an ability to think for themselves.

I, personally, put no more faith into the Pope's ability to dictate what he believes the rules to be anymore than your ability to do the same. You interpret it one way, he another, myself a third. In the end, IF i meet my maker (IF there is a maker) it wont be the Pope standing there taking the heat for me, or you for that matter. I will be the one answering for my actions (IF there is an action to answer too).

For many people, the walk with God is a personal one.

I live a lifestyle relationship... i feel no conflicts with my religious beliefs.

I am a single mother... again, no conflicts.

I enjoy sex for the sake of having sex... again, no conflicts.

I work on sundays... by choice... again, no conflicts.

And, if and when the time comes that i stand before God, then my actions can only be answerable by myself... not someone in charge of a religion.

I tend to think of God in the same light as the law. Ignorance is no excuse. (Not calling anyone ignorant). Just meaning in the same vein as Master ordering me to kill someone. (yes, i know, the extreme) But, if i do the deed, no court will exmept me from punishment simply because i was commanded to do so.

Neither would God.

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 9:55:34 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

It goes to show that any one of us have it in us to be barbaric. Did those scientists kill by experimentation in the name of science or to further Hitlers achievements?

As unpleasant as it is to contemplate the German scientists who experimented on prisoners did it in many cases to advance the cause of science. A specific area where the use of their data is still somewhat controversial is the study of how humans react to immersion in icy water.

for instance:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3561733

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 9:55:40 AM

Moonhead

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"All that God has ever demanded of his creations is that they demand as much as they can from themselves,"?

I think that might be the gnostic grievance with catholicism that you've just articulated rather nicely.

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 11:17:11 AM

tazzygirl

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Perhaps you could expand upon that. My understanding of gnostic doesnt seem to match yours as you have used it.

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RE: Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? - 12/7/2010 11:49:14 AM

Moonhead

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One of the main arguments in early protestantism was that the individual sinner has to forge their own relationship with God, rather than having a prefabricated one handed down to them by the Pope. I'm sure you're right that they probably wouldn't have called it gnosis themselves, but the rejection of an established and codified orthodoxy in favour of a more free form relationship with the Divine was tending that way, at least before the various new sects all became ossified and formalised themselves in the fullness of time.

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