RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations.

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/11/2010 2:23:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle AFAIK they haven't anyone here who openly speaks for them yet One of the nicer things about peace is that it makes such voices irrelevant. They dont need anyone here to speak for them, theyve done plenty of speaking for themsevles. You might start with their Charter. Its those voices and support for them that make peace impossible. Here's a voice that makes peace impossible: "No, the real tragedy of the whole situation is that people still think that there IS a non-military soluton. Centuries of hate and genocide in the name of a religion that wishes it was still the 13th century will NEVER be reversed diplomatically." That voice belongs to you willbeurdaddy (Post#58, this thread). My voice on a BDSM site doesnt have jackshit to do with making peace impossible. That you cant even grasp the obvious is made clear by this post.

tweakabelle -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/11/2010 2:58:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The settlements are neither illegal nor colonies. Settlement construction has been stopped several times and many settlements were evacuated and turned over to the Palestinians. Still no peace. Every Government in the world regards the colonies (for that is what they are) as illegal. That includes the US Govt which is usually so servile towards Israel. The colonies are widely regarded as war crimes. The relevant section (Article 49) of the Geneva Conventions reads as follows: The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.* Readers can now make up their own minds whether the colonies constitute, by their very existence, a war crime or not. The Palestinians have been saying that the colonies are a major problem for decades now. In the last few weeks Israel had a clear choice between continuing the peace talks or continuing construction in the colonies. Despite being offered a massive American bribe to choose peace talks, Israel chose to continue building its colonies on the West Bank and the peace talks are no more. Spin it any way you like, Israel places a higher priority on expanding its colonies than peace talks. Israel's actions tell me it chooses colonising the West Bank over peace, it prefers committing war crimes to talking peace. Actions speak much louder than words. *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention

DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/11/2010 3:11:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hertz Israel, despite Domken's protestations, has not stuck with the agreements it has made, it continues to support what the whole world recognises are illegal settlements quote: Settlement construction has been stopped several times and many settlements were evacuated and turned over to the Palestinians. Still no peace. I understand it is Israeli practice to destroy any buildings before withdrawing. What gets handed back to the Palestinians is their own land with rubble strewn across it, which cannot be cleared for lack of resources, courtesy of the blockade. Maybe you can provide a link to a news report to back up your claim? http://articles.cnn.com/2005-08-18/world/gaza.pullout_1_neve-dekalim-gaza-settlements-israeli-police?_s=PM:WORLD I can present more, including satellite photos showing intact settlements immediately after the gaza withdrawal.

Moonhead -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/11/2010 3:16:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Jewish populations are also largely urban where leftism is the predominant ideology. Somebody hasn't seen "The Fiddler On The Roof"...

DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/11/2010 3:27:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The settlements are neither illegal nor colonies. Settlement construction has been stopped several times and many settlements were evacuated and turned over to the Palestinians. Still no peace. Every Government in the world regards the colonies (for that is what they are) as illegal. That includes the US Govt which is usually so servile towards Israel. The colonies are widely regarded as war crimes. The relevant section (Article 49) of the Geneva Conventions reads as follows: The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.* Readers can now make up their own minds whether the colonies constitute, by their very existence, a war crime or not. The Palestinians have been saying that the colonies are a major problem for decades now. In the last few weeks Israel had a clear choice between continuing the peace talks or continuing construction in the colonies. Despite being offered a massive American bribe to choose peace talks, Israel chose to continue building its colonies on the West Bank and the peace talks are no more. Spin it any way you like, Israel places a higher priority on expanding its colonies than peace talks. Israel's actions tell me it chooses colonising the West Bank over peace, it prefers committing war crimes to talking peace. Actions speak much louder than words. *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention The Fourth doesn't apply. Legally Jordan and Egypt illegally occupied the West Bank and Gaza in 1948. When Israel gained control of the regions there was no entity with a legal right to them so they annexed th eparts they wanted (Jerusalem which legally belonged to no state) and allowed settlement by their citizens in the rest of them, the Israeli government never deported not transfered their population. The Palestinians have claimed the settlements were an obstacle but when the entire Gaza was evacuated and turned over to the PO the palestinians didn't stop their violence and even started using gaza to launch rockets and mortars into Israel.

hertz -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/11/2010 3:31:54 PM)
Here are some satellite images for you. Before the withdrawal from Neve Decalim... [img]http://www.decolonizing.ps/site/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/destruction_gaza_nevedecalim_prima.jpg[/img] and after... [img]http://www.decolonizing.ps/site/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/destruction_gaza_nevedecalim_dopo.jpg[/img] All the houses were demolished. You could go on about the Greenhouses if you want. I know quite a bit about what really happened there, if you are interested in seeing beyond the Zionist propaganda.

tweakabelle -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/11/2010 5:29:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The Fourth doesn't apply. Legally Jordan and Egypt illegally occupied the West Bank and Gaza in 1948. When Israel gained control of the regions there was no entity with a legal right to them so they annexed th eparts they wanted (Jerusalem which legally belonged to no state) and allowed settlement by their citizens in the rest of them, the Israeli government never deported not transfered their population. Here's what Wiki has to say on the application of the Fourth Geneva Convention: "In 1993, the United Nations Security Council adopted a report from the Secretary-General and a Commission of Experts which concluded that the Geneva Conventions had passed into the body of customary international law, thus making them binding on non-signatories to the Conventions whenever they engage in armed conflicts.[2]" (my emphasis) * If you for a moment believe that the tendentious defence of non-application justifies Israeli behaviour, I suggest you use it in the International Court. If the learned judges manage to refrain from outright laughing in your face, you will have achieved a result beyond expectations. Either every Govt in the world, including the US Govt, with their wealth of legal advice, is wrong in believing the colonies to be illegal OR the Israeli Govt. and you are right. It's that simple. quote: The Palestinians have claimed the settlements were an obstacle but when the entire Gaza was evacuated and turned over to the PO the palestinians didn't stop their violence and even started using gaza to launch rockets and mortars into Israel. Let's look at what the Israeli Prime Minister has to say on the subject shall we? In The Washington Times, 25 Jan 2010, Netanyahu is quoted as saying about the colonies: "Our message is clear: We are planting here, we will stay here, we will build here, this place will be an inseparable part of the state of Israel for eternity,"^ (emphasis added) The report led with: "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared Sunday that Israel would retain parts of the West Bank forever — a statement that infuriated Palestinians and could complicate the year-old peace mission of a visiting U.S. envoy. Mr. Netanyahu laid claim to disputed territory just hours after meeting with George Mitchell, the Obama administration's Middle East envoy. Mr. Mitchell has been shuttling between Israeli and Palestinian leaders since late last week in hopes of breaking a deadlock over construction in Israeli settlements." (ibid) That's a credible reason why Israel scuttled the peace talks IMHO. Straight from the horse's mouth. Again, spin it any way you like, Israel wants the West Bank more than it wants peace. *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention ^http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/25/netanyahu-says-some-west-bank-areas-to-be-kept/

DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/12/2010 6:20:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hertz Here are some satellite images for you. Yeah one town was bulldozed. Try looking at Netzarim. it's still there.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/12/2010 6:24:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Let's look at what the Israeli Prime Minister has to say on the subject shall we? In The Washington Times, 25 Jan 2010, Netanyahu is quoted as saying about the colonies: "Our message is clear: We are planting here, we will stay here, we will build here, this place will be an inseparable part of the state of Israel for eternity,"^ (emphasis added) The report led with: "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared Sunday that Israel would retain parts of the West Bank forever — a statement that infuriated Palestinians and could complicate the year-old peace mission of a visiting U.S. envoy. Mr. Netanyahu laid claim to disputed territory just hours after meeting with George Mitchell, the Obama administration's Middle East envoy. Mr. Mitchell has been shuttling between Israeli and Palestinian leaders since late last week in hopes of breaking a deadlock over construction in Israeli settlements." (ibid) That's a credible reason why Israel scuttled the peace talks IMHO. Straight from the horse's mouth. Again, spin it any way you like, Israel wants the West Bank more than it wants peace. Netanyahu is a far right winger who is opposed to the land for peace deals. His government was elected because the Israeli people are fed up with giving away land and getting more violence in return. It is natural for a people to swing away from something that isn't achieving their goals, in this case a cessation of violence against them. You might want to consider he was not PM during most of the peace process and is unlikely to remain PM beyond the end of his present term.

CerVeza -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/12/2010 6:28:14 AM)
Wish Bibi would be the USA president. He's only a far right winger if you are a leftist. Listen to him. He is logical and makes sense. Unlike many other jews and israelis, he makes me think Israel is worth saving and is not on some bizarro self emulation kick just to please lefties.

hertz -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/12/2010 6:49:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: hertz Here are some satellite images for you. Yeah one town was bulldozed. Try looking at Netzarim. it's still there. OK - so you accept that the settlement that you originally referenced: quote: http://articles.cnn.com/2005-08-18/world/gaza.pullout_1_neve-dekalim-gaza-settlements-israeli-police?_s=PM:WORLD Neve Decalim, was indeed totally destroyed by the Israelis before they withdrew? And now you'd like to support your argument with another example, Netzarim? Before... [img]http://www.decolonizing.ps/site/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/netzarim_top_prima.jpg[/img] After... [img]http://www.decolonizing.ps/site/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/netzarim_top_dopo.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.decolonizing.ps/site/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/netzarim_road2.thumbnail.jpg[/img] The Israelis operate a scorched earth policy. When they withdraw, they destroy everything, and they never replace the original Palestinian buildings that were destroyed to make way for them.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/12/2010 7:36:03 AM)
Actually Netzarim was intact when the Isrealis evacuated. They Palestinians caused trouble when they destroyed a synagogue after the evacuation. http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ExodusFromGaza.html What happened to the rest of the town is the PO's doing.

hertz -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/12/2010 8:31:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Actually Netzarim was intact when the Isrealis evacuated. They Palestinians caused trouble when they destroyed a synagogue after the evacuation. http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ExodusFromGaza.html What happened to the rest of the town is the PO's doing. So your contention is that it wasn't the Israeli army that demolished Natzarim? You actually believe that the entire settlement was razed to the ground by the Palestinians? Seriously, you need to wake up.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/12/2010 8:37:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Let's look at what the Israeli Prime Minister has to say on the subject shall we? In The Washington Times, 25 Jan 2010, Netanyahu is quoted as saying about the colonies: How about we look at what Zahir Muhsein, executive committee of the PLO said instead: "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism. ‘For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/12/2010 10:29:06 AM)
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/palestinians-torch-gush-katif-synagogues-1.169707 http://www.romenews-tribune.com/view/full_story/3422365/article-Palestinians-take-over-abandoned-Jewish-settlements--set-empty-synagogue-buildings-on-fir---Breaking-New

Moonhead -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/12/2010 11:35:49 AM)
I wonder what the Stormfront website has to say about Netzarim?

hertz -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/12/2010 1:46:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/palestinians-torch-gush-katif-synagogues-1.169707 http://www.romenews-tribune.com/view/full_story/3422365/article-Palestinians-take-over-abandoned-Jewish-settlements--set-empty-synagogue-buildings-on-fir---Breaking-New Here are some interesting lines from your second link: quote: Israel removed some 8,500 Gaza settlers from their homes in 21 settlements last month, and razed homes and most buildings in the communities. However, the Israeli Cabinet decided at the last minute Sunday to leave 19 synagogue buildings intact, drawing complaints from the Palestinians and criticism from the United States. In Washington, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said the Israeli decision ``puts the Palestinian Authority into a situation where it may be criticized for whatever it does.'' After daybreak, the situation was largely calm. Dozens of curious Palestinians moved into Netzarim to get a glimpse of what was once a heavily fortified enclave in central Gaza. People inspected the rubble, and school children climbed on the ruins of a building. Environmental workers gathered samples of rubble for testing. According to your link, and pretty much every single report I have seen, Israeli forces razed the homes and buildings in the settlements, leaving the Synagogues untouched. Understandably, the Synagogues did not remain untouched by the Palestinians. Neither of the links you have posted appear to say anything different, although they are not especially explicit.

Moonhead -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/12/2010 1:55:58 PM)
Why is the Israelis taking their ball home with them after being ordered off the court a problem?

hertz -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/12/2010 2:09:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Why is the Israelis taking their ball home with them after being ordered off the court a problem? Is that your way of saying that Yes, the Israelis did destroy all the houses in the settlements, and DomKen's assertion that the buildings were handed to the Palestinians as a free gift is wrong?

DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/12/2010 2:16:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hertz quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Why is the Israelis taking their ball home with them after being ordered off the court a problem? Is that your way of saying that Yes, the Israelis did destroy all the houses in the settlements, and DomKen's assertion that the buildings were handed to the Palestinians as a free gift is wrong? All buildings were not destroyed. Synagogues, greenhouses (I donated money to insure that they were turned over intact) and some other structures were turned over intact. It appears that all those structures were destroyed by the palestinains. So that does put the lie to the claims that the palestinians were left with nothing but rubble.

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