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RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/19/2010 8:57:25 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Try that again. U.S.C. 6011 and 6012 lay out quite clearly who has to file a return.
From 6012:
quote:

Every individual having for the taxable year gross income which equals or exceeds the exemption amount

Pretty clear.

6151 says you have to pay the income tax
from 6151:
quote:

Except as otherwise provided in this subchapter, when a return of tax is required under this title or regulations, the person required to make such return shall, without assessment or notice and demand from the Secretary, pay such tax to the internal revenue officer with whom the return is filed, and shall pay such tax at the time and place fixed for filing the return

Again very clear.

So either you had no idea what you were talking about or you flat out made up your claim.


ken;

if you want to understand the tax laws, well any laws frankly, you need to go to the beginning.

That means you start with the constitution, then go to the statutes at large and then you start with IRC from the beginning in the first publication forward.

The reason for thi sis that they leave "stuff" out which totally changes the meanings.

If you want to expereince forst hand what I am talking about when I say syntax terrorism you will experience it when you get into law starting with the intent through to today.

Oh and btw I need 2 things from you, 1) I need the definition of income as used in the irc, and 2 I need to know what taxes "have" to be paid in.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 6:24:11 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Mustard, you really don't have to be "meen".

The fact is you don't have to pay. Only certain people do, but it is not universal. Bannister is not God's gift, nor an all seing oracle or anything like that. He is, however, not a charlatan by any means. Some of his methodology is very sound, but really, I know people who quit paying before he ever got into the news.

A buddy of mine makes about a quarter million a year, and he stopped paying about fifteen years ago. I saw the response to him from the IRS with my own eyes. He was actually defined in their letter as a non taxpayer. He has not had a bit of trouble with them since. I stopped paying about eight years ago, and they know right where I am. They simply do not scare us anymore.

If you want to fight the taxman there is one thing to remember - don't fight the taxman. Sounds like bullshit but it isn't. The fact is if you are in tax court in the first place you have already fucked up. The whole charade is based on voluntary compliance.

Mark my words - if you don't want to volunteer to pay taxes, do not file. Let's get this straight. Almost everyone who has beaten the IRS in court did not file. The reason is that the 1040 is not a reciept, or a ledger, it is more like an affidavit, or a contract. Lying on it is perjury. If you don't want to tattle on yourself and you don't want to lie, just shut the fuck up, and you do that by simply not filing. If they come for you, bring on the first line of defense. I did not have sex with that Woman, define taxpayer, where exactly does it say I have to pay ? They have the words, make them prove it.

Many "laws" are written with loopholes, and it is for a reason beyond the scope of this text. Doesn't matter, they exist. Looking carefully at the words tells it. Define income, person, in fact define Citizen, and then define citizen. I have five lines of defense when it comes to this shit, but three of them are out the windows if I sign up. If I file a 1040 of any kind.

T

(in reply to MeenMrMustard)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 7:53:15 AM   
MeenMrMustard


Posts: 55
Joined: 11/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Mustard, you really don't have to be "meen".


Ken was asking for it, with his wise-ass There is no response possible beyond 'thank you.' reply.

The absurdity of these statist partisan pundits coming together only to try to keep non-conformists in their place also needed to be addressed.

quote:

The fact is you don't have to pay. Only certain people do, but it is not universal. Bannister is not God's gift, nor an all seing oracle or anything like that. He is, however, not a charlatan by any means. Some of his methodology is very sound, but really, I know people who quit paying before he ever got into the news.


This is true, but the fact that he is an IRS defector adds icing to the cake.

quote:

A buddy of mine makes about a quarter million a year, and he stopped paying about fifteen years ago. I saw the response to him from the IRS with my own eyes. He was actually defined in their letter as a non taxpayer. He has not had a bit of trouble with them since. I stopped paying about eight years ago, and they know right where I am. They simply do not scare us anymore.

If you want to fight the taxman there is one thing to remember - don't fight the taxman. Sounds like bullshit but it isn't. The fact is if you are in tax court in the first place you have already fucked up. The whole charade is based on voluntary compliance.

Mark my words - if you don't want to volunteer to pay taxes, do not file. Let's get this straight. Almost everyone who has beaten the IRS in court did not file. The reason is that the 1040 is not a reciept, or a ledger, it is more like an affidavit, or a contract. Lying on it is perjury. If you don't want to tattle on yourself and you don't want to lie, just shut the fuck up, and you do that by simply not filing. If they come for you, bring on the first line of defense. I did not have sex with that Woman, define taxpayer, where exactly does it say I have to pay ? They have the words, make them prove it.


This is the key.

quote:

Many "laws" are written with loopholes, and it is for a reason beyond the scope of this text. Doesn't matter, they exist. Looking carefully at the words tells it. Define income, person, in fact define Citizen, and then define citizen. I have five lines of defense when it comes to this shit, but three of them are out the windows if I sign up. If I file a 1040 of any kind.


It should also be pointed out that even if you do everything right, the judge or jury can still fuck you up.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 9:51:59 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MeenMrMustard

6011: When required by regulations prescribed by the Secretary and person made liable for any tax imposed by this title, or for the collection thereof, shall make a return or statement according to the forms and regulations prescribed by the Secretary. Every person required to make a return or statement shall include therein the information required by such forms or regulations . . .(f) Income, estate and gift taxes. For requirement that returns of income, estate, and gift taxes be made whether or not there is tax liability, see subparts B and C."

So show me who’s required, Ken.

You either don’t have a clue what the fuck you’re talking about, or you’re another government shill.

By the way, did you watch the interview with your hero Cohen?


Can't you read?

Again from 6012
quote:

Every individual having for the taxable year gross income which equals or exceeds the exemption amount

That's who has to file a return.

Again from 6151
quote:

Except as otherwise provided in this subchapter, when a return of tax is required under this title or regulations, the person required to make such return shall, without assessment or notice and demand from the Secretary, pay such tax to the internal revenue officer with whom the return is filed, and shall pay such tax at the time and place fixed for filing the return

And that says if you have to file a return you have to pay the income tax.

It couldn't be simpler. If you are too stupid or clueless to read plain English I recommend you go find a kindly first grade teacher to explain the words you don't understand.

(in reply to MeenMrMustard)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 10:50:39 AM   
MeenMrMustard


Posts: 55
Joined: 11/19/2009
Status: offline 		I can read just fine. It's YOUR comprehension skills that suck beyond belief. So I'll try again:

It says when a return of tax is required. But it doesn't also explain who and under what circumstances it's required. Get it?

Show me the law that specifically explains that citizens of the US are liable to pay tax on their labor or wages. You never will, because you can't. It doesn't exist.

I noticed you're afraid to discuss the interview with your statist hero Cohen too. I can't say that I blame you there.

_____________________________

The measure of a society is how well it can help the advantaged in times of uncontrolled avarice.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 1:25:08 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		How many different ways does this have to be explained?

6012 says you have to file a tax return if your gross income is higher than the exemption. 6151 says that if you have to file a return then you have to pay the tax.

It's ridiculously simple.

(in reply to MeenMrMustard)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 2:05:17 PM   
kinkbound


Posts: 387
Joined: 9/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MeenMrMustard

I can read just fine. It's YOUR comprehension skills that suck beyond belief. So I'll try again:

It says when a return of tax is required. But it doesn't also explain who and under what circumstances it's required. Get it?

Show me the law that specifically explains that citizens of the US are liable to pay tax on their labor or wages. You never will, because you can't. It doesn't exist.

I noticed you're afraid to discuss the interview with your statist hero Cohen too. I can't say that I blame you there.


You left yourself slightly vulnerable. You should have asked Ken to show you the law which specifically states that US citizens are liable to pay tax on their labor or wages EARNED WITHIN THE US.

US citizens earning money outside of the US are liable.

(in reply to MeenMrMustard)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 4:06:10 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Yet more nonsense.

Read the laws under discussion there is no exemption for income earned inside the US. You're repeating a claim from the tax avoidance con artists. It simply isn't true.

(in reply to kinkbound)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 4:07:05 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		That's where it gets complicated kink. Just what are you a Citizen of ? That's actually another tool in the nontaxpayer's box. This is where the definition of the united states comes in.

My guinea pig is doing just fine, and he actually called himself that because I was around when he first started. I warned him that it was dangerous, but he went ahead anyway. Over the last 15 years or so he probably saved close to a million bucks.

The whole thing is based on fraud, we know that now. And we can see it coming as well. In Ohio now they want you to report all purchases you made3 by mail or online from another state and pay Ohio sales tax on it. I doubt complioance is common, ot say the least. There is absolutley no basis in law for this, and I think a whole lot more people know that than one might expect.

But back to the basis in law - riddle me this.

Congress could easily pass a law that simply does require everyone to pay. I think the President would sign it, wouldn't you think ? It could pass and become the law of the land which would shut Bannister down along with alot of other people. How much more money they would collect is anyone's guess.

So why don't they simply pass a law ? Really. What possible reason could they have for not doing so ? How many reasons for such a "failure" could possibly exist ?

I'll demonstrate how easy it is. You just get a typewriter and type the words : "Every person born or naturalized in the united states must pay income tax at rates set forth in the IRS code" .

Now we know they know how to type, they type and type until lawmakers can't possibly read the bill and as a result they don't always know exactly what they are voting for. But this is one sentence. Whether it pulls in any money or not is up in the air. But hell, it's not like they can't afford ink.

Some say a law is not necessary. Bullshit, you go to put people in jail they better have broken a law. Why not write one ?

I don't care to debate the reasons too much, the fact is they don't have that law, and are operating under color of law. Since there is more than one of them, that's conspiracy. They are the ones who shut the fuck up when people make those allegations.

From what I recall, Bannister switched sides after someone he was after for taxes asked the simple question ; Where does it say that I, specifically, have to pay. He couldn't find it, nor could his superiors. He was asked to resign. Just for asking the question he was out of a fairly decent job.

Legally there is a difference between laws, statutes, codes and ordinances. There is also a specific definition in law, which describes exactly what united states territory is. When you start dancing with these people you better know it all. Dot every I and cross every T. And there is a bunch of words you must never use in court or in any correspondence with the court. One slipup and you are done.

And you only get one chance. There are certain things you must never do again. Unfortunatley one of them is to register to vote. It's not so bad though, there's nobody to vote for anyway.

T

(in reply to kinkbound)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 4:09:38 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Mr. Wesley Snipes has held off having to go to prison for 2.5 years, but he is now going...he had those same shithouse lawyers and same shithouse arguments and same ..........

Failure to pay taxes. 


You guys go ahead and play mouthpiece to the taxable, but sooner or later.........you will insure an invitation to the saturday night squaredance down at the federal correctional facility, where you will be wearing the dress and the ribbons in your hair.  And dancing with Jesse, and his big white friend Be'nahd 

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/20/2010 4:18:23 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 4:21:30 PM   
kinkbound


Posts: 387
Joined: 9/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Yet more nonsense.

Read the laws under discussion there is no exemption for income earned inside the US. You're repeating a claim from the tax avoidance con artists. It simply isn't true.


Sorry Ken, but I haven't seen anything convincing from you. You're just pitching the same old government sleight-of-hand, and haven't produced any evidence that US citizens are liable to pay tax on labor/wages earned within the US.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 4:27:22 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		From U.S.C. 26 61 Gross income defined:
quote:

Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, gross income means all income from whatever source derived, including (but not limited to) the following items:
(1) Compensation for services, including fees, commissions, fringe benefits, and similar items;
(2) Gross income derived from business;
(3) Gains derived from dealings in property;
(4) Interest;
(5) Rents;
(6) Royalties;
(7) Dividends;
(8) Alimony and separate maintenance payments;
(9) Annuities;
(10) Income from life insurance and endowment contracts;
(11) Pensions;
(12) Income from discharge of indebtedness;
(13) Distributive share of partnership gross income;
(14) Income in respect of a decedent; and
(15) Income from an interest in an estate or trust.

So since section 6012 says if you have gross income, the above stuff, greater than the exemption amount you must file a return and section 6151 says if you have to file a return you have to pay the tax.

How much more proof is required if plain english won't do it?

(in reply to kinkbound)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 4:36:50 PM   
kinkbound


Posts: 387
Joined: 9/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

So why don't they simply pass a law ? Really. What possible reason could they have for not doing so ? How many reasons for such a "failure" could possibly exist ?



My guess? Because if they passed a law now, they would be openly admitting that the law didn't exist previously. The ramifications of such an admission would be tremendous.

quote:

From what I recall, Bannister switched sides after someone he was after for taxes asked the simple question ; Where does it say that I, specifically, have to pay. He couldn't find it, nor could his superiors. He was asked to resign. Just for asking the question he was out of a fairly decent job.


Of course he and his superiors couldn't find it. It doesn't exist.

quote:

There are certain things you must never do again. Unfortunatley one of them is to register to vote. It's not so bad though, there's nobody to vote for anyway.


This one I haven't heard of yet.


(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 4:56:06 PM   
kinkbound


Posts: 387
Joined: 9/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Mr. Wesley Snipes has held off having to go to prison for 2.5 years, but he is now going...he had those same shithouse lawyers and same shithouse arguments and same ..........

Failure to pay taxes. 


You guys go ahead and play mouthpiece to the taxable, but sooner or later.........you will insure an invitation to the saturday night squaredance down at the federal correctional facility, where you will be wearing the dress and the ribbons in your hair.  And dancing with Jesse, and his big white friend Be'nahd 


Nobody here has said that the government hasn't either jailed innocent people in the past and/or "confiscated" their property, or that they won't continue to do so for as long as they can get away with it.

Rational people realize that the IRS rules with fear and intimidation, and I fully agree with Termy that anyone proceeding to take them on had better know what they're doing. I also agree with Mustard that even if you do everything right, you can still get fucked by a judge. So I advocate to no one.


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 7:16:18 PM   
MeenMrMustard


Posts: 55
Joined: 11/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkbound

quote:

ORIGINAL: MeenMrMustard

I can read just fine. It's YOUR comprehension skills that suck beyond belief. So I'll try again:

It says when a return of tax is required. But it doesn't also explain who and under what circumstances it's required. Get it?

Show me the law that specifically explains that citizens of the US are liable to pay tax on their labor or wages. You never will, because you can't. It doesn't exist.

I noticed you're afraid to discuss the interview with your statist hero Cohen too. I can't say that I blame you there.


You left yourself slightly vulnerable. You should have asked Ken to show you the law which specifically states that US citizens are liable to pay tax on their labor or wages EARNED WITHIN THE US.

US citizens earning money outside of the US are liable.



Point noted. Thanks.

_____________________________

The measure of a society is how well it can help the advantaged in times of uncontrolled avarice.

(in reply to kinkbound)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 7:43:01 PM   
MeenMrMustard


Posts: 55
Joined: 11/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

From U.S.C. 26 61 Gross income defined:
quote:

Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, gross income means all income from whatever source derived, including (but not limited to) the following items:
(1) Compensation for services, including fees, commissions, fringe benefits, and similar items;
(2) Gross income derived from business;
(3) Gains derived from dealings in property;
(4) Interest;
(5) Rents;
(6) Royalties;
(7) Dividends;
(8) Alimony and separate maintenance payments;
(9) Annuities;
(10) Income from life insurance and endowment contracts;
(11) Pensions;
(12) Income from discharge of indebtedness;
(13) Distributive share of partnership gross income;
(14) Income in respect of a decedent; and
(15) Income from an interest in an estate or trust.

So since section 6012 says if you have gross income, the above stuff, greater than the exemption amount you must file a return and section 6151 says if you have to file a return you have to pay the tax.

How much more proof is required if plain english won't do it?



You're trying to pass the Code off as plain English??? Any credibility you may have had left with casual observers just went down the toilet with that idiotic statement.

The Code is a syntax shell game, intentionally designed to overwhelm, obfuscate, and deceive. You either already know this and are a government shill, or you're an even bigger dupe than I originally thought.

Here's "from whatever source derived" all broken down for you:

http://www.synapticsparks.info/evidence/c02/allinc.html


_____________________________

The measure of a society is how well it can help the advantaged in times of uncontrolled avarice.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 10:14:20 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Now now.

People believe what they do because of predisposition. No argument will suffice for some. It's not my problem.

People, well in the words of a fictional character : "Our society is authority driven". that is true. Some of reject authority and some have been doing it for a long time. Others have spent time studying authority. This can drive them even deeper into their false beliefs.

But now it gets deep. Before I proceed I want to make it clear that I do not intend to hurt anyone, but to illustrate a point. Stay cool on this if you would.

Ken has a medical problem which makes him dependent on the "system", whatever that is. That has been expressed in posts, it's not like I'm telling some secret. As such, wouldn't you think that he might be swayed towards a certain way of thinking ? WOULD YOU ?

Each of you consider : if your very life depended on something, would you be for it or against it ? I have alot of balls, fortitude or whatever you may call it but really, does it go that far ? I am not in that position so I do not know.

How could I predict what a totally different set of circumstance would do to my opinion ?

With that in mind, I say this. I am not totally fucking honest except with my friends. I'll take from our illustrious government and say thank you kindly, now. A few years ago they didn't even know I existed. I liked it that way.

It's unfair I know. I am using the government right now for my own personal gain. I can't really say they fucked me over, so it is not a matter of returning the favor. But they fucked alot of people over. Come for me. You ain't met a motherfucker quite like me. I'm not going to outline all I've done and what my plans are, suffice it to say that I want mine.

The difference here is that for one I don't owe them shit, yet. For two, the body politic to which I belong is not their friend, to say the least. And when it comes to taxes, really that is the least of my worries. Fukum. Prove how much money went into my pocket last week.

The law is there for everyone to read. If Ken reads it different then so what. I do say though that he and many others fall into the trap of assumption.

Thing here is to go back to the beginnings. You don't cut at the top of a tree to make it fall. (maybe in the city, but that's not what I mean). You cut the roots. Go all the way back and someone tell me the definition of the united states. I recall something about military bases and ten square miles. If you don't live in those areas you are technically not a citizen of the united states ?

Well then you aren't under their jurisdiction then right ? WRONG. You are within the jurisdiction of anyone able to claim it. Right now it's the US government. Might makes right. All this shit boils down to the same old basic class war. They want power and we do not want to give it up, well some of us anyway. Business as usual. The only disturbing thing about this mess is the fact that so many people buy into bullshit, and think we can't win. Think that "You can't fight city hall". That is a crock of shit. You can fight city hall. You can fight the feds. You can fight anyone you damn well please.

Where they gain their power is the fact that all of the battles are not chosen, and sometimes those that are are fought wrecklessly and ultimately in vain. This discourages others from fighting. Social engineering 101 folks.

And numbers are a problem. Out of us are the populace that sees past the charade, who will fight. On top of that we have an even smaller segment that can and will fight effectively. You've heard of people who don't take no for an answer ? Some of us don't take anything for an answer. With decades of this shit under my belt, no answer is good enough anymore. I see how it is, and I got a pretty good grasp of how it got this way.

Daddy taught me well. When they ask you to sign, you are signing something away and damn well fucking better read it, every word. When they require you to sign it is that much more important, because if you don't, threats are made. That is because of your ability under the law to contract. More than once faced with that situation I looked over what they wanted me to sign and flipped the paper back across the table saying "I ain't signing that". In each and every case when that happened, I am glad that I did not sign.

All this started 45 years ago, and that is right, I am 50. I was 5 years old. My Daddy also told me not to take shit from anyone. He may have remembered that, because he was not all that surprised when I punched him in the mouth. He taught me to reject authority, and if it backfired on him, tough shit. These suits couldn't argue their way out of a Napster case. The only reason the prosecution prevailed is because there was big big money behind it, and Mr. Napster didn't do his homework. Neither did his lawyer apparently.

But I will say it again, if you can avoid it, do not fuck with these people. Just let them be and don't tattle on yourself and you should be fine.

T

(in reply to MeenMrMustard)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/20/2010 11:37:25 PM   
MeenMrMustard


Posts: 55
Joined: 11/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:


Ken has a medical problem which makes him dependent on the "system", whatever that is. That has been expressed in posts, it's not like I'm telling some secret. As such, wouldn't you think that he might be swayed towards a certain way of thinking ? WOULD YOU ?


You obviously know more about Ken than I do. Okay fine, he can believe whatever he wants to believe. I'm done on this thread.

_____________________________

The measure of a society is how well it can help the advantaged in times of uncontrolled avarice.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/21/2010 6:26:30 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Termy, my medical issues have no bearing on the truth. I've been handing you your head on your lies for years longer than I've been sick. Remember when you used to claim the IRS was a private corp? Or your claims about "challenge jurisdiction?" Or your claims about the gold standard? Remember running away from thread after thread when I proved you were wrong? Why must you continue to spout this nonsense? Didn't spending time in jail convince you that your bullshit was simply that?

As to ignorantmrmustard, I presented the laws in question. If that isn't simple and clear enough for you then you aren't competent to walk down the street so I recommend you get into a home for the mentally handicapped ASAP.

(in reply to MeenMrMustard)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: No Conspiracy: IRS - 12/21/2010 7:29:27 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Believe what you want.

Know what ? I'm glad the majority of people don't believe it.

T

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 40
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