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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/19/2010 6:05:30 PM

DesFIP

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There's another option you didn't consider. Experiences during the formative years can also enter into this. I have always assumed that my submissiveness is a response to childhood depression at a time there was no such diagnosis nor any treatment. Early experiences can affect the developing brain and influence basic personality.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/19/2010 6:57:41 PM

mummyman321

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I agree with DesFIP. We are not born one way or the other. Life experiences will shape our personality and who we become along with our own internal decisions. God (if you believe in a higher being) gave us the gift of choice and higher reasoning. We make our own judgements and we choose who we want to be. Our experiences in life help shape those choices. But when it comes down to it, If you are submissive, it is simply because you choose to be submissive.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/19/2010 7:20:04 PM

LPslittleclip

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i was a helpful person even as a kid so some of it is my nature but the lifestyle is my choice as it resonates with me and helps me define my life.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/19/2010 7:22:49 PM

Hisnerdykittycat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama I believe that submission is an inborn trait.

Agreed.

I believe that submissive and dominant are personality traits that some people are born with, or even a leaning to one side or the other. I also think there are certain triggers that cause a person to lean to dominant or submissive.

I'm in the same boat as the people who were never abused. I had a fairly stable, happy childhood. However, at a certain age, I lost all of my parental discipline. That could have been my trigger and the reason for my craving discipline and rules within my relationships.

I, personally, don't have a choice to be submissive. Even in my 'vanilla' relationships, where the guy has no interest, I am service oriented. I DO have a choice to submit and be a slave.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/19/2010 9:03:54 PM

Daddysredhead

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~FR~

For me, this is all about choice. I choose when to submit (it's not in my nature at all). I also choose when not to. The kinky side of it all is just a learned preference for me. I am also able to turn that on and off, it isn't an "ongoing, all the time" thing for me.

< Message edited by Daddysredhead -- 12/19/2010 9:04:33 PM >

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/19/2010 10:50:01 PM

jujubeeMB

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Nature AND nurture. Part of our personalities are genetic, and part are developed in childhood. You don't have to be abused to develop an attraction to being told what to do, or a craving for control. I personally think it has a lot to do with different pleasurable experiences/self-defense mechanisms/fears in childhood combined with certain inherent traits that encourage specific sexual proclivities. There's a lot of psychological research out there that says the things said and done to you during your formative years will make you who you are, and there's a lot of scientific research out there that says genetics play a huge role in determining personality traits. So both, probably.

And neither of those is a choice, in the sense of choosing your sexual/romantic desires. By the time choice enters into it, sexual desires are already in place and can really only be altered by degree.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/20/2010 5:44:10 AM

xssve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

There's another option you didn't consider. Experiences during the formative years can also enter into this. I have always assumed that my submissiveness is a response to childhood depression at a time there was no such diagnosis nor any treatment. Early experiences can affect the developing brain and influence basic personality.

It is an argument, but I'm more inclined towards the nature argument - the R4 allele in particular has been implicated in novelty seeking behavior, as well as ADHD, and there are something like 7 different variations of it, the "kink" variation might be one of them.

That's not to say that formative experiences might not influence a particular kink or fetish, a shoe fetish for example - I have a mild pantyhose fetish, I love women in pantyhose, it's not an uncommon fetish, and the imagery was ubiquitous back when I was a child, in advertising, the Sears catalog, etc., lol.

Fact is, I think everybody is "kinky", not everyone is able to overcome their inhibitions and social programming, and that might might be where the R4 allele comes in - because I think even Vanillas are freakier than they like to admit, there is a reason that porn has become, for all practical purposes, one of the largest industries in the world - according to the Janus report, the percentage of all men and women into kink is a 15%, but the percentage of people surfing porn is way higher than that.

< Message edited by xssve -- 12/20/2010 5:47:14 AM >

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/20/2010 6:10:37 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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I have always been sexually avant-garde, from the extremes of celibacy to "free love". I think, because of this, my involvement with BDSM hasn't really revolved around issues of "kinky sex".

~fr~

For me, I am what I am. I have always been a rebel, always challenged authority, and have chosen, for most of my life, to frequent the fringes of society, not just sexually, but philosophically, spiritually, intellectually, and in physical manifestation as well. However, as many of the folks who have been around a while know, I came into the BDSM world on the opposite side of the collar from where I am now, since that was a requirement of the Household that I am involved with. While that was a real challenge for me, as was my time as a novitiate and acolyte of the path on which I am now an abbess, I embraced it as a conscious choice on -my- part to explore myself fully. I don't believe that I am tied to -anything- that I don't genuinely desire as part of my essential being. If I actively participate in something in my life, it is because it fulfills me in some way. I am not a victim of my past... or of my future, so while nurture may play a part in particular expressions of my being, I know that the core of those things is just part of the person that I am.

As I've said on a couple of other posts, the things that brought me to the BDSM communities in which I've participated (particularly face-to-face communities) have had nothing to do with "healing my past", or "coming to terms with myself"... and it hasn't been about sex, except in the most ancillary fashion. It has been about having the opportunity to explore greater measures of -control- and -authority-, as well as the opportunity to find people who were willing to explore some of the more outre activities that I find enjoyable, like body modification. Those folks may exist in more mainstream environments (and now, some of them have their own communities, that I am more active in), but it's been my experience that they pretty much keep their mouths shut in the mainstream world, so that they won't stand out too much... which makes them pretty tough to connect with, n'est ce pas? These things were all present in me from a very young age. I have -always- loved the way tattoos looked on skin, and found piercings to be amazing. I've always been the one who watches when the phlebotomist or nurse drew blood or started an IV. I loved my paramedics training, and the feeling of a needle penetrating skin and finding that vein and watching blood move. I have always been controlling, and when I could not control a given situation, I have been obstinate and intractable about participating, unless it was my own idea and I knew that I was yielding for a purpose that mattered -to me- (for example, the tortures of running track or training for rugby -- which is a brutal sport, btw. *lol*).

That being said, I don't think that I'm necessarily typical here, either. I don't really mind much flitting on the edges of the BDSM realms... and I am pretty sure that what I am is "nature", not "nurture", since I was interested in all of these things long before I ever knew that they existed in the real world, and I have never gone out of my way to try to become something...only to educate myself on possible outcomes or expressions for what I already -was-. I have always been just who and what I was, and let the chips fall where they may.

Calla

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/20/2010 8:18:56 AM

slavekal

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I absolutely was born with these desires. There was nothing in my childhood that made me light up when I saw the Amazons from Venus enslaving astronauts in those fifties sci-fi movies. My brother grew up in the same house, and he did not have the same reactions. It's just wiring. Elly May, Ginger and Mary Ann, Jeannie...yeah, they were okay. But when I saw Catwoman...POW! She was it.

http://slave2catwoman.blogspot.com/2010/05/youre-just-boy-again-tonight-on-batman.html

http://slave2catwoman.blogspot.com/2009/12/your-mother-should-know-good-friend-of.html

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/20/2010 10:05:52 AM

Charles6682

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I do believe myself that this is a matter of nature and nurture.I do believe some of my submissive trait's I was born with.I didn't know anything about D/S when I was younger and yet I still found myself submissive toward's Women.Once I realized that there was actually a name for how I felt,I was relieved.Of course,since I've been a adult,I have chosen to follow up with my submission.Also to answer another question,no,I don't feel I could ever be a Dominant or Switch.I have thought about it but it is simply not in my nature.I was submissive in my own way's toward's Women when I was in vanilla relationship.I never felt right in a vanilla only relationship.Sure,I like to do vanilla thing's,but when it come's to a strictly vanilla only relationship,I just couldn't be me.That's why now I am honest with myself and only wish to be with a Domme.I have tried to ignore my submissive desire's since I have been an adult.It never work's.I deny myself who I am.I am better off accepting myself for who I am.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/20/2010 10:30:16 AM

ricken

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I agrre with allthatjazz and others, we are born with traits that we expand on and make choices about.
I as far as abuse and sex goes, I think I can equate it with this statement:
I don't smoke cigaretts, because my parents where very heavy smokers (Me)
I smoke cigaretts because my parens where very heavy smmokers (My brother)
We both give the same reason for doing oppisite of each other.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/20/2010 11:13:10 AM

Aneirin

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One thing I am finding with BDSM, is it is very common amongst those that call themselves artists, be it whatever art, basically creative people and to think about it, the acts involved under the BDSM umbrella can be creative expression.

But perhaps a correlation with what others have said here, many artist types have at some point in their life been abused in some way, be that physically or mentally and if you think in that direction, maybe even spiritualy.

To me, BDSM is creative expression, something more than just the need to further the species or relief from the blue balls, and can even be an enhancement on human kind, in that sex is not just about reproduction as some seem to think.

But with artist types, quite often the joy of the job in hand, the creative expression, is the journey, the experimentation not the end result.

But as I hold that BDSM is common with artist types, they are not the only type that may be involved, for I think there are other types of people attracted, what I would call abusers, people who need to feel powerful for a time, even if that time is a time where there is consent, perhaps the only way for many.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/20/2010 9:19:52 PM

hematitan

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I know that personally, I'm wired the way I am. I found things like characters being tied up in movies exciting for as long as I can remember. I've had some form of the same type of fantasies for as long as I can remember. I was never abused as a child. I was never spanked. I didn't learn that there was a name for what interested me, and that I wasn't the only one, until I was older. When I did, it was a relief -- I'd thought there was just something off about me.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/21/2010 5:53:11 AM

DomImus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I think we are all wired towards our sexuality. Since BDSM is an expression of that sexuality, it would stand to reason that we are wired towards being Dominant or submissive.

I know that I fantasized about this during childhood without knowing what this was until I started reading.

I was never abused or treated badly; in fact had a great childhood with a loving family.

I just knew I was turned on by certain things I saw in movies, books, and behavior experienced between me and my friends.

Later on I connected my sexuality with the fantasies I had during childhood and it all made sense.

I think you do not have a choice on your inherent wiring, but you do have a choice whether to participate in more structured things, like BDSM. Some choose to go through life rejecting their feelings and some embrace them.

I second this one. It is almost word for word what I was about to write. I even managed to dabble early on exploiting games like "cops and robbers" for my own ends. If I made a choice to pursue these interests I was too young to remember having done so. This only applies to me, however. I think there are plenty of folks who wander into all of this later in life and just find that they enjoy it. There seem to be far more stories of late bloomers than there are of people who have felt this since childhood.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/21/2010 11:34:40 AM

oldbabyface

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Nature versus Nuture?

My best guess is that inclinations are fashioned by a combination of what's in our genes (nature) and earliest experiences (nuture). As we would not be in a position to exert control over either I cannot believe any kind of choice would be possible.

Ultimately inclinations are not a choice, though how we act on them are. Being involved in BDSM is acting upon those inclinations and therefore a choice.

EDITED - because the original posting was rubbish.

< Message edited by oldbabyface -- 12/21/2010 11:49:05 AM >

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/21/2010 11:54:57 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MMercurial

haha

Funny question!

Alot of people here were abused, sexually or otherwise, by parents, relatives, teachers, babysitters, neighbors, etc., when they were children.

They didn't have a choice!!!!!

malesurvivor.org

This is true of the population as a whole, yet a slim minority wind up pursuing this. Many go on to be very "normal" and "vanilla". Try again bub!

I think, like everything else this is a mix of this whole nature/nurture debate. Nothing is really all one or the other. I have a natural tendency to attitudes and approaches considered "submissive". I also had childhood and adult experiences that impacted how I express those "submissive" traits. At the same time, I also (as a switch) had experiences that drew out and led me to express very dominant traits in some situations.

An example I gave in my own debate with my dear university professor great uncle once was that of surfing. I can have all the natural ability in the world, but if I grow up in an area where there are no beaches, I will like never learn to water surf no matter what my giftedness may be. I probably won't even think of surfing as something to pursue beyond a fun adventure on vacation at most. If I grow up on the beach and immersed in the surfing world, it doesn't mean that I am going to have the ability to slap a board under my feet and ride a wave like a pro. I can certainly get better over time and come to enjoy it, but if I don't have those innate skills, I will never be a "natural" at it no matter how skilled I become. If everything lines up perfectly and I am born with the athletic skill set necessary, access to the activity and equipment, and have the encouragement of those around me, I have the potential to do some truly amazing things. Any of those links lacking and I am going to be less well suited than I would have been and my accomplishments, great as I might manage to make them, will still be smaller than they would have been under perfect conditions.

I know people work hard to overcome so called "fate". I know people who work hard to undo the things that seem to hold them back from their "destiny". I also know that responsibility for who we become and what we do and the consequences of those things are squarely on our own shoulders. I am not going to blame God, genetics, my parents, or anyone else for who I am today. I choose to make me the person I want to be. I can overcome past hardships. I can work on areas of my own personal weakness. I can do what I am willing to put full effort and energy into doing. Blaming genes or the environment, even in a complimentary way, is a cop out. Putting in the hard work to accomplish your goals, is self responsibility and pretty darn gratifying.

lovingpet

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/21/2010 12:27:16 PM

servantforuse

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For myself I would have to say nature. I also grew up in a loving home with brothers and sisters. We were not spanked, even when it was thought to be ok way back then. I had feelings of being tied up by women as far back as I can remember, probably age 10 or so. I can think of no 'life experiences' that would have me thinking of these thoughts at that age without being born that way..

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/21/2010 2:28:13 PM

Ravensnake

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Let me offer a third option; as a result of or related to our upbringing; i.e a strict public/private school where canings were administered regularly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I am curious.......Is the BDSM lifestlye a choice or are we born this way?

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/21/2010 2:32:27 PM

LanceHughes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ravensnake
Let me offer a third option; as a result of or related to our upbringing; i.e a strict public/private school where canings were administered regularly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682
I am curious.......Is the BDSM lifestlye a choice or are we born this way?

Whoa!

Absolutely NO such canings in my life, nor a strict upbringing as you indicate.

That's like saying all the gay men were raped before the age of 10 or some other such nonsense.

If you want to go with your 3rd choice, then homosexuals can be cured. And so can BDSMers.

Whoa! Just WHOA!!!!!

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RE: Is BDSM a choice or are we born this way? - 12/21/2010 2:33:21 PM

LadyPact

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Maybe I am seeing the terms differently than other people.

Nature would be those things related to a cause determine by something such as genetics. Something to do with our DNA, perhaps. (Example, green eyes are attributed to something we are born with.)

Unless I'm mistaken, everything else is nurture. The way we are raised, our environment, and our outside influences.

I'm confused as to how there are supposed third categories.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 12/21/2010 2:34:37 PM >

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