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RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 8:08:34 AM   
Halcyone


Posts: 93
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I agree that online is a perfectly valid way to begin the process of getting to know someone. I also agree that for those who only want online....well, whatever works for you is fine. Where I have a problem with the whole thing is when people assume that their online relationship is the same as the reality of being in a D/s, M/s relationship in real time....especially if it is going to involve aspects of BDSM.

Too often I have seen people with no real time experience invest a great deal of time, emotion, effort and finance...sometimes for periods of years....only to find out that when they cross that bridge into reality that their illusion of what it would be is shattered and the relationship at that point fails.

It is entirely different to fantasize about being in complete service to someone and an utterly different thing to actually do it. It is an entirely different feeling to long to be in the bondage of another than it is to experience the feeling that comes when that last restraint clicks shut and you realize that you are now at the complete will of another....not just in bonds of your own making on a web cam where you leave one hand free to type or spank yourself for him to see. There is no amount of talking or typing in the world that can prepare you for the physical sensation of that whip biting into your real flesh. There is no way to prepare you to willingingly accept pain that is doled out at the level of his discretion in comparison to the level you can take yourself to for his viewing pleasure. Not trying to piss anyone off here...but I contend that until you have some real time experience under your belt, what you have is but an illusion of what you think the reality will be like.

Edited because I need more coffee to spell correctly


I agree with you that online is best as a tool and not one's entire world. Viewing it that way tends to ground a person and brings a dose of reality into the mix, where it's so easy to be swept up in fantasy. I know for a fact that there are things about Sir that I won't know until we've been together physically, and vice versa. There are details that simply don't come out online, or on a webcam, or over the phone.

This, however:

quote:

I contend that until you have some real time experience under your belt, what you have is but an illusion of what you think the reality will be like.


...is where I have to stop agreeing with you. I can only speak from my personal experience, of course, but what Sir and I have now is what we have now. It is reality and not an illusion. It isn't the reality of someone who is living 24/7 in the same  house as their partner/s, but it is our reality. He has control over my life. It isn't the same sort of control that someone face to face will have or offer up, but it is control. To say that our D/s relationship is an illusion because we haven't had the luxury of a face to face meeting yet isn't accurate.

So much of D/s is in the head and the heart. Why is it difficult to believe that control can't be established over distance? The physical aspects are missing, the S&M, but the dominance and the submission are still there. Online is simply the medium we practice them in.

Again, I am not saying our experience is the same as someone who is right there with their partner/s. I am saying they are different, with different challenges and techniques. That difference doesn't make our relationship an illusion.


(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 8:18:06 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Well you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not discounting what you have. What you have is what you have. I am sure that your emotion for each other is very much real. I am sure that the time that you have invested is very much real.

What I am saying is that your perception of what the reality of being together real time will be like is an illusion at this point because you are not together at this point. Kind of like trying to describe what chocolate tastes like to someone who has never tasted chocolate. I can tell you that it is sweet, it is smooth and it is creamy...but does that really prepare you for the actual time you first put it in your mouth?

_____________________________

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When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Halcyone)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 8:20:56 AM   
Reasonable


Posts: 459
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline 		The saddest thing is when one spends years and years online......then you finally meet in person,and it goes on one more day.

< Message edited by Reasonable -- 4/30/2006 8:21:11 AM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 8:22:09 AM   
MistressWolfen


Posts: 578
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Halcyone

quote:

ORIGINAL: NINASHARP
I don't understand this illusion of serving your sir, serving someone who could be a teenager, or a prison inmate, maybe. 


I would hope and expect that with the use of telephone and web cam a person could rule out that the one they are speaking to is a) a teen b) a prisoner or c) misrepresenting gender or sex

 Could he have lied through this? Yes. Are there people who manage to lie for so long over distance?

Absolutely he could have lied throughout the process, just as many long term commited real time relationships are based on lies; the gay married man that remains in the closet and seeks liasons whilst away on business; the wife that "fibs" about her age, humans lie.


You believe all online relationships are illusion and I'm telling you that this one isn't.

I did not understand that people were saying that all online relationships are illusionary, in as much as I understand them to be saying that distance or online relationships without the shared goal of real life experience is not for them and that they do not believe it to be tangible and/or strongly viable.

What we have has worked for us so far; it is a power exchange dynamic, if not one that is understood or recognized by others.

In my humble opinion there in is the crux; it is your relationship and should not matter one jot that others recognise or validate it, if it is satisfactory for you and yours that is all that matters.


I wish you the best of luck and much happiness. I certainly appreciate the challenges of distance in a relationship but have to agree with previous posters in that with out a goal of physically being together real time it is not so much illusionary (as it is a relationship of a different sort, not the illusion of one), but that it is not necessarily viable and certainly it is not holistic. 

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(in reply to Halcyone)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 8:24:51 AM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		I used to write fiction and consider cyber communications an art. I really do. I’m not into any cyber relationships now, but I went that route more than once. I do admit that I would always be working towards real time, but it could take awhile to get there.

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(in reply to Halcyone)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 8:25:12 AM   
Halcyone


Posts: 93
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline 		Ah, I see what you're saying. That does make sense from one angle. From another, I would say Sir and I have spent the past year building a foundation between us. When we finally have our chance to meet, we'll build the walls and the ceiling. But even if we never met, that foundation would still be there. It's not chocolate but it's still pretty sweet. 

Still, the OP asked how it is possible to serve at a distance, without expecting or knowing if/when you might meet, and I've tried to show how it is, and why it is. Because there are those who build fantasy worlds online doesn't mean there aren't also those who make it work. To label all online relationships as illusions or fantasy (and I'm not saying you did this, mistoferin, this is in response to other posts in this thread) is inaccurate.

< Message edited by Halcyone -- 4/30/2006 8:26:57 AM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 8:32:39 AM   
MistressWolfen


Posts: 578
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		I concur Halcyone...different lenses different locuses

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Quoth the raven

(in reply to Halcyone)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 8:34:08 AM   
MsPoetress


Posts: 1066
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline 		Just a couple of days ago I was talking to my husband about the same thing. It makes no sense to me, but that is my opinion.

I can understand meeting online and getting to know each other online before you meet. After that....

I mean how do you know that they are really what they proclaim to be and not some jerk who has a wife and 3 kids trying to live out a fantasy online, because he is to scared to try in real life.

I don't understand how you can trust somenoe if you have never looked them in the eyes or met them.

Like I said this is just my opinion.

~poe

_____________________________

~poe

I'm mad, you're mad, we're all mad here, it's the fad for many a year, if you think we're crazy my dear, you're right cause I'M mad, YOU'RE mad, we're ALL mad here! - Mad Hatter

(in reply to NINASHARP)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 8:35:34 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		For some people all they really want is the online interaction so for them it is indeed "real". Or perhaps they aren't out in a way that let's them be offline. Or they might have fantasies and interests that they aren't comfortable to play out face-to-face where they risk the fantasy being destroyed. Or maybe they live in a very isolated place far from others -- these places still do exist on Earth though technology is lessening the distance if you have the money.

Before online people turned to writting letters or talking on the phone or watching videos or reading to have their "experiences". At least when you use the computer, the phone or a letter you have contact with another person.

I did online for a while and learning that it does ZERO for me. It just isn't what I'm looking for and cannot provide me with the feedback and level of submission or dominance I want and need.

But that's me.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to NINASHARP)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 8:36:38 AM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NINASHARP
Can you really trust someone completely until you meet them in person.


Can meeting someone in person make you trust more?...... Hell I met my former was gonna be Dom in real life... 14 months of bullshit and lies still surfaced. Meeting someone in person doesn't mean the lies and other bullshit that goes along with it won't still happen. I'm in NC he's suppose to be in TX. We met in TX.... he came to NC... when it all came down to the nitty gritty.... I think his dumbass is in Pheonix.... not sure really... LOL... don't care either. So meeting one doesn't change the game... if it's a game.. hell to some.. it makes their game more enjoyable... when they can do such things.


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(in reply to NINASHARP)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 8:39:11 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsPoetress

Just a couple of days ago I was talking to my husband about the same thing. It makes no sense to me, but that is my opinion.

I can understand meeting online and getting to know each other online before you meet. After that....

I mean how do you know that they are really what they proclaim to be and not some jerk who has a wife and 3 kids trying to live out a fantasy online, because he is to scared to try in real life.

I don't understand how you can trust somenoe if you have never looked them in the eyes or met them.

Like I said this is just my opinion.

~poe
  This expresses how I feel exactly. I just don't consider it being "IN" a relationship until I do spend real time with the person. I don't mind the dirty underwear and pizza box part, its part of real life and that is what I want. I want to see all the warts and faults and love them in spite and because of them. I am too old to waste my time dreaming of an illusion of perfection.

(in reply to MsPoetress)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 8:40:25 AM   
Halcyone


Posts: 93
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsPoetress
I mean how do you know that they are really what they proclaim to be and not some jerk who has a wife and 3 kids trying to live out a fantasy online, because he is to scared to try in real life.

I don't understand how you can trust somenoe if you have never looked them in the eyes or met them.


It takes time, trust and communication. There are those who will lie. Some will  be caught before it causes heartache, some won't. Oddly enough, there are people out there who tell the truth, online or off.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressWolfen
I wish you the best of luck and much happiness. I certainly appreciate the challenges of distance in a relationship but have to agree with previous posters in that with out a goal of physically being together real time it is not so much illusionary (as it is a relationship of a different sort, not the illusion of one), but that it is not necessarily viable and certainly it is not holistic.


Thank you. May I ask what you mean by it not being holistic? I'm not sure I understanding your meaning here.

(in reply to MsPoetress)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 8:46:09 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		All I have is my own experience to help you shed light on your question, as I understand those who think cyber is real to them and I understand those who think it is not.

My met my first dom in a political online venue where we struck up a friendship and then it became more. As we talked about "sex" he helped me explore submission, which I had already knew existed and felt drawn to, but I did not understand how it also was a part of who I was ALL the time. Yes, he dominated me in the real world, and that is totally different than cyber... but the feelings I felt were real both places. I fell in love with this man over the internet. Now I know others do not think this is possible, and everyone is allowed to their own opinion... And our situation did not turn out, and a lot of the reason was because of the distance involved and financial reasons...

In the end I think that the dynamic can be started over the internet, but that it must move to real life to make that blossom into a full blown D/s relationship in every sense of the word.... Make no mistake, D/s all begins in the head, the rest of it is actions that fulfill the power exchange. The internet and cyber is all about getting into someone's head

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NINASHARP)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 8:57:16 AM   
MistressWolfen


Posts: 578
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		 
by holistic I was referring/considering the whole thing (relationship) and being (the people involved), so looking at the balance between the emotional, the mental, the spiritual and the physical and acknowledging that although indeed some of these can be met in a distance relationship that people are physical entities that need physical interaction to be holistically (whole/complete) in balance and for a relationship to meet those needs it must address the physicality as well.........phew......love when questioned and have to define....thanks...lol

_____________________________

Quoth the raven

(in reply to Halcyone)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 9:00:44 AM   
LadyMorgynn


Posts: 800
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: N. Carolina
Status: offline 		Rather than hearing all the r/l lifestyle folk slam the cybers, I'd really like to hear from those people who for whatever reason are only able to be in a cyber/phone BDSM relationship. 

I have to say honestly that I just don't get it.  What benefit do you derive, when you can never be with each other in person?  The sub can't ever actually kiss his Mistress' feet, or take her car to be washed, or be bound and flogged.  The Domme can't ever get her sub to give her a massage, or haul her sub over her lap for a good OTK, or led him around the local dungeon naked on a leash and chain. 

So... what do you DO?  What kind of orders are given/followed?  What do you get out of it?  I'm asking these questions not in any argumentative spirit, because I honestly would like to understand.  Not because I ever want to have a cyber relationship (I want someone AT My feet, dammit!), but there seem to be so many of you here, I'd just like to understand where you are coming from.  It seems only fair.



_____________________________

---
Lady Morgynn
www.farhorizons.net/LadyMorgynn

(in reply to NINASHARP)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 9:03:33 AM   
Phoenixandnika


Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline 		My views about online relationships have changed in the past year. When I meet Phoenix, I didn't have an issue with it. He and I where on different coasts yet we had become best friends via online conversations and phone calls. I begged to be his and he told me I would be his real life the moment he physically placed his collar around my neck. This didn't change my mind set that I was his.
 
 I have seen a very close friend hurt because she took the collar of someone online. Someone she had never meet. She had the power exhange just like any D/s relationship. She grew to love this woman. However, she found out it was all a lie. The woman, the domme was a 13 yr old child playing a role. She had seen her on cam, but the reality is children are maturing faster and looking older than what they truly are. She had spent 1000s of hours on the phone.She was devestated and felt lost when she found out the truth.
 
So now, I have a hard rule that if someone doesn't want to meet face to face in a reasonable period of time. There is probably a reason for that. I have become the cynic I suppose.
 
Now I sit and wonder how people can trust someone they have NEVER meet. Are you submitting , in love with the real person or what they want you to see, or what you want to see?How can you give yourself totally to someone who is nothing more than a virtual reality. It is so easy to become something your not online. Maybe, I am simply jaded. I don't know.
 
Perhaps it works for some, but I personally no longer understand it.
 
Nika{Phoenix}
 
 

_____________________________

"Life is neither a bed of roses nor a carpet of thorns, it's just what you make of it."



(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 9:38:46 AM   
Halcyone


Posts: 93
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressWolfen
by holistic I was referring/considering the whole thing (relationship) and being (the people involved), so looking at the balance between the emotional, the mental, the spiritual and the physical and acknowledging that although indeed some of these can be met in a distance relationship that people are physical entities that need physical interaction to be holistically (whole/complete) in balance and for a relationship to meet those needs it must address the physicality as well.........phew......love when questioned and have to define....thanks...lol


Thank you, MistressWolfen! I do agree, this sort of relationship doesn't provide a balance when you set physical beside the emotion, mental and spiritual aspects. That's one of its shortcomings and probably our biggest frustration. The lack of the physical, touch, scent, taste, is very limiting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn
So... what do you DO?  What kind of orders are given/followed?  What do you get out of it?


That's a fair question and I gave some general examples in my first post to this thread. To be more specific...

Sir is a teacher. Often he'll have me track down and arrange sources for his research or classes, or study something in order to discuss it with him so that he can present it to his students.

He controls how I dress. This involved my providing him with the details of my wardrobe, both in list form and in pictures.

He's given me a week to week schedule I'm to follow. The entire day isn't mapped out but there are tasks  I'm to complete every day. If I'm not able to for whatever reason, I'm to let him know as soon as possible.

He controls my orgasms. I'm only allowed to come when he gives me permission. This goes when I'm away from the phone, webcam and computer, and when we're together.

I perform for him in any way he asks me to. Sometimes this is over the phone or computer, where I'm required to prepare myself for him, position myself for him, do to myself what he tells me to. Sometimes this involves pain, sometimes pleasure. Our "play" sessions require that I serve as his hands, which is limiting, but one makes do with what's available.

We share at least one meal a week, in which we prepare and enjoy the same recipes, on the same evening, at the same time.

Several times a week, he'll leave me a list of special tasks I'm to perform for him that day. These have ranged from sitting down to write a short story to playing with myself in a restaurant bathroom.

What I get out of it is the love, support, encouragement and control from the dominant man I fell in love with. I recognize that being in the same room, acting as Sir and miss, would be and will be different from what we've experienced while apart. But the emotions behind what we do are not dissimilar.Many of the actions and tools are the same.

Edited to add to the list of things we do - And yes, sometimes we do cyber each other. We're both writers. We both recognize that words on the screen aren't real. They certainly have a real effect however, in the hands of someone who knows how to use them.


< Message edited by Halcyone -- 4/30/2006 9:41:02 AM >

(in reply to MistressWolfen)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 9:59:28 AM   
MG


Posts: 8
Joined: 10/3/2004
Status: offline 		Friendships are a form of relationships. I would guess that most of us reading these boards also use or have used various chatrooms over the years and built up friendships with people we have never met or seen a photograph of. Their impact on our lives is nonetheless real.

The basics of any M/s , D/s etc relationship are honesty and communication. Honesty is not dependant on being able to hold or touch ones submissive or Dominant.

The exchange of power does not need those exchanging the power to meet in the flesh. All that is necessary is honesty, truth, commitment and belief.

It is true that some people need the physical touch in their relationships. Not all do however.

I need not be in the same room as my submissive to control her. If I dont need to be in the same room I dont need to be in the same country.

The important thing is honesty. If one is being honest where is the problem.

There are many online who are dishonest and claim to be what they are not, either submissive or Dominant.

To me it is a question of determining the honest from the dishonest.

MG

(in reply to Wulfchyld)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 10:06:11 AM   
darq


Posts: 443
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: under a rock
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NINASHARP

quote:

ORIGINAL: darq

I often feel that the flesh gets in the way in a lot of relationships.

Some of the emotionally closest and most fullfilling relationships I've ever had, I experienced *before* I went real time. I don't 'cyber' ... So the entire relationship was about how it felt to surrender ... I was with this particular Dominant for 2 years and I actually learned a lot about the mindset of a submissive during that time although I won't be so stupid as to say that I learned much of anything about the physical aspects of BDSM play.

We had to be more creative, I guess. There wasn't the option of tying me up and letting me feel the physical pull of his will. He had to inspire those feelings in other ways. I would sometimes be given assignments to complete and I had to keep a journal every day that he would read. I'm not sure how to explain it except to say that it worked for us and it felt right.


You served a dominant two years, but only in cyber?  Is that correct? What happened to keep it from going beyond that and into reality?



It is correct. He lived in England, actually. At that point, I was also underage ... I discovered BDSM in my early teens ... Now, yes, I know that its wrong for adults to discuss adult topics with minors. He knew my age ... He was comfortable with it. It was almost a decade ago now and I still think of him with great fondness.

_____________________________

So you found a girl who thinks really deep thoughts ...
Tell me, whats so amazing about really deep thoughts?

I speak my mind because it hurts to bite my tongue.

(in reply to NINASHARP)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Cybering in the scene. - 4/30/2006 10:45:44 AM   
LadyMorgynn


Posts: 800
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: N. Carolina
Status: offline 		Thank you, Halcyone, for your informative as well as extremely expressive post!  While it's not for me, I can indeed see, through your eyes, how such a relationship can be formed and maintained... and the strong emotional ties between you and your Master shine through your writing.  Kudos! :)


_____________________________

---
Lady Morgynn
www.farhorizons.net/LadyMorgynn

(in reply to Halcyone)
Profile   Post #: 40
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