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Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 2:48:27 AM   
Jaybeee


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Status: offline 		I'd like some suggestions about what kinds of work we could allocate to prisoners, and whether we should make the burden lighter for female prisoners.

It occurs to me that, when we imprison a man (or woman), society suffers twice; once from the original crime committed, and again from the financial cost of processing him/her through the judicary and then housing them as inmates.

Now, while we can't quantify the monetary value that society has lost as the result of a murdered man, a raped woman etc, we CAN put a price on the cost of the prison system. It's simply the total amount that a government spends on it per year, divided by the number of man-days (this will include female inmates, who btw per person cost us even more), and voila, for every day spent in prison, that's what each inmate owes the rest of us.

While I recognise that most of thes bastards are largely incapable of self-managing structured, supervised work, I am disgusted by the fact that they can laze around for most of the day while the rest of us put in gruelling 40/50+hr workweeks paying for their incarceration. So what I propose is that we turn prisons into what corporate accounting refers to as "cost-centres", inmates effectively mirror outside society by performing supervised, randomly-inspected sweatshop-level work, for profit, for a few hours a day. Effectively we would be insourcing, back into the West, the repetitive, menial work that has given China/Vietnam such tremendous economic advantage. One example I'm thinking of is stuffing toys (that are then taken to a local factory for machine-stiching) and sold at at competitive rates to toy manufacturers, and given free to orphanages, but I'm sure you people have far more profitable ideas.

Slackers who don't hit productivity targets will be penalised not with beatings or withdrawal of food, but priveleges such as library/tv-room access are withdrawn until such time as the laggard has made good his backlog. If he stops working altogether, he can just sit in isolation, and I mean sensory isolation too, no books, no visits from the prison psychologist, minimal light, minimal heat, no flavouring of any kind in his food etc. Just a security monitor high in his cell.

And then I ran into a dilemma; normal government jobs that require heavy lifting (ie firefighting) MUST be open to women too, but could we legally set productivity targets as high for female inmates for a job like pumping air into a football?

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 4:05:38 AM   
hertz


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Status: offline 		Sounds perfectly reasonable to me, apart from your sanctions regime for non-participation, which I think switches the focus too much towards punishment rather than the personal transformation of prisoners into productive members of society.

One of the other reasons for introducing this sort of work regime, beyond the ones you have mentioned, is that it encourages prisoners to maintain (or learn) a work habit. I'm not especially keen on this because I am into any sort of Victorian idea of the work ethic, but I am into it because realistically, when these people get to leave prison, they are going to need to be able to get back into work in order to support themselves.

One of the things I have seen over and over again is that many people coming out of prison have very limited work skills and a very limited understanding of the responsibilities required to maintain a job. When you put this together with the lack of support they get on release, then you are almost guaranteeing failure and re-offending. An in-prison work regime could be used to address the first parts of this equation.

Maybe the system you are suggesting might be used to raise funds for in-prison education/counselling programs, or post-prison support programs? I'd be in favour of this, although I guess most right-wingers might want to use this sort of system to part-fund the prison system itself.

EDIT: The gender thing is a red herring, I think. Prisoners should be assigned work they are realistically capable of performing. There is no point in making people do stuff they are physically unable to do.


< Message edited by hertz -- 12/21/2010 4:07:45 AM >

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 4:24:35 AM   
Louve00


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Status: offline 		Actually, in Florida, they do put jailed inmates to work.  They work with the Dept of Transportation here.  Picking up trash along the highway and various other jobs that are supervised by both the Dept of Corrections officers and the DOT employees.  Only, to my knowledge, they only use male inmates but that may have changed by now.  My husband worked for DOT about 20 years ago and would sometimes work with inmates then.

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 4:51:43 AM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		Massachusetts has inmate work programs. Sex offenders are not allowed to participate. Provisions are made for victim assessment.

This link has before and after pics and financial stats:

http://www.bcso-ma.us/workprograms.htm

The Inmate work program not only provides savings to cities and towns to also is used as a program to rehabilitate and reintegrate inmates back into the communiy. The Sheriff's Inmate Work Program provides skill training, a work ethic, self-esteem and a chance for the inmates to give back to society.

Here's something on Federal programs for female inmates:

In the area of job training, the agency's apprenticeship training programs have been accredited by the U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Apprenticeship and Training. These programs assist in preparing women for a wide range of positions, including auto mechanic, electrician, plumber, painter, bricklayer, data processor, and secretary. The BOP offers to female inmates apprenticeship programs in 40 different trades.

-----------

I'd like to get the inside scoop from people who have actually been involved in these programs, either as inmates or staff.





< Message edited by kalikshama -- 12/21/2010 5:16:59 AM >

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 5:09:19 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Victorian idea of the work ethic


I'm only passingly familiar with this phrase, so looked it up, found Protestant Work Ethic, and then Work Ethic:

Work ethic is a set of values based on hard work and diligence. It is also a belief in the moral benefit of work and its ability to enhance character. An example would be the Protestant work ethic. A work ethic may include being reliable, having initiative, or maintaining social skills.

Workers exhibiting a good work ethic in theory (and ideally in practice) should be selected for better positions, more responsibility and ultimately promotion. Workers who fail to exhibit a good work ethic may be regarded as failing to provide fair value for the wage the employer is paying them and should not be promoted or placed in positions of greater responsibility.

My work ethic has served me well in small companies but not so much in larger organizations.

I agree that inmates without job skills are more likely to re-offend. Neither society nor inmates are served by idleness. I believe in rehabilitation, not simply punishment.

Now to give an opposing viewpoint airplay, from the wiki article:

Others believe that the concept of "hard work" is meant to delude the working class into being loyal servants to the elite, and that working hard, in itself, is not automatically an honorable thing, but only a means to creating more wealth for the people at the top of the economic pyramid.


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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 5:17:38 AM   
twistedreality


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Status: offline 		There are a lot of redeeming qualities to hard work. As for Wiki's statement, they presume the masses are that ignorant and susceptible. If that is the case, the only logical solution is not allowing the ignorant to breed. And, I dont think many of us want to go that route.

Rehabilitation and hard work should be an integral part of jail time. But, it should also be a part of any public assistance program.

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 5:40:32 AM   
KenDckey


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Status: offline 		I used to supervise prisoners working for my municipal department.  They were paid a small stipend and were taught work ethics and job skills.  The ones I worked with got a day for day reduction in their sentence as an incentive.   I taught light construction.   Some of my peers taught landscaping and other jobs.    I had one that I even used as a teacher in "safety classes" to the rank and file due to his unique qualifications.   My sister uses prisoners at Animal Control to aid in housekeeping duties.  Both in different states.

I have seen chain gangs working along side the road (no they weren't in chains).   When I was in GA, I even hired a work crew to help me move.

When I worked supply with the military, I learned that Government Industries made some of the products we consumed.



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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 5:43:15 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		Prisoners work here. Cleaning litter from the roadside. Landscaping in parks. Maintenence in city and county buildings. One I talked to preferred it to just sitting around watching a TV with 40 other guys in a grey room.

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 5:46:48 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

Actually, in Florida, they do put jailed inmates to work.  They work with the Dept of Transportation here.  Picking up trash along the highway and various other jobs that are supervised by both the Dept of Corrections officers and the DOT employees.  Only, to my knowledge, they only use male inmates but that may have changed by now.  My husband worked for DOT about 20 years ago and would sometimes work with inmates then.


Yup, in Florida they have PRIDE

http://www.oppaga.state.fl.us/profiles/1037/




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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 6:58:12 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

Slackers who don't hit productivity targets will be penalised not with beatings or withdrawal of food, but priveleges such as library/tv-room access are withdrawn until such time as the laggard has made good his backlog. If he stops working altogether, he can just sit in isolation, and I mean sensory isolation too, no books, no visits from the prison psychologist, minimal light, minimal heat, no flavouring of any kind in his food etc. Just a security monitor high in his cell.


If labor is involuntary and one can't choose his profession or negotiate his wages, what's the difference between this and slavery?

"The inmates who work in PRIDE industries earn between 20 cents and 55 cents per hour, depending on their skill level and length of service."

http://www.oppaga.state.fl.us/profiles/1037/

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 7:13:12 AM   
lazarus1983


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Status: offline 		There is nothing new nor revolutionary about your idea. Everything in a prison is done by an inmate. Laundry, kitchen, janitorial work, work crews, landscaping, etc. Jobs are highly prized and an awesome management tool. At my prison we created jobs. Does the same corridor need to be swept, mopped, and buffed twice a day?

Female inmates are put to work the same way. The women's facility here has a giant fishery as their Prison Industry. Since corrections is always last in line for funding, yet society expects the most out of us, Prison Industries are very important.

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 7:44:21 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		I believe that license plates are all made by inmates.

The only issue is that if you use inmates for a specific job, then you impact the other workers in that industry, who must now compete against people who do not need to pay for food, rent, or utilities.


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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 8:24:27 AM   
Charles6682


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Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline 		This of course I think is a good idea.I know Flordia has a program,as mentioned before.I know some place's in upstate NY do this.The best I have seen was when I was living in a county in Southeast Georgia.They didn't really have a Dump Truck driving around picking the garbage up.They had some county jail inmate's doing that.What a great idea to save taxpayer's money.I am all for these idea's.

DarkSteven does make a good point though.If you have too many inmate's taking over too many "job's",then they do start to take away real job's from law abiding citizen's.

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 12/21/2010 8:25:16 AM >

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 8:34:27 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I believe that license plates are all made by inmates.

The only issue is that if you use inmates for a specific job, then you impact the other workers in that industry, who must now compete against people who do not need to pay for food, rent, or utilities.



From what I've heard, they also have an easier time finding jobs once they get out of prison than law abiding citizens due to affirmative action (I think companies get tax breaks for hiring them).


< Message edited by defiantbadgirl -- 12/21/2010 8:41:42 AM >

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 8:42:07 AM   
lazarus1983


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I believe that license plates are all made by inmates.

The only issue is that if you use inmates for a specific job, then you impact the other workers in that industry, who must now compete against people who do not need to pay for food, rent, or utilities.



From what I've heard, they also have an easier time finding jobs once they get out of prison than law abiding citizens due to affirmative action (I think companies get tax breaks for hiring them).



This is 100% true. WalMart is one of them.

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 8:55:45 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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Status: offline 		So the key to getting a job is the presence of a criminal history. I can't help wondering how well that works for someone with a criminal history and a college or technical degree. Have a degree and can't find a job? Commit a crime. Sad.

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Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 9:06:10 AM   
lazarus1983


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

So the key to getting a job is the presence of a criminal history. I can't help wondering how well that works for someone with a criminal history and a college or technical degree. Have a degree and can't find a job? Commit a crime. Sad.


But they're supposed to have served their time, paid their debt to society, and so are on an equal level as everyone else, right?

Therein lies a huge problem. The public expects corrections to rehabilitate an inmate, but all the rehabilitation in the world won't make a single difference if the general public won't let that person escape their past mistakes.

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 11:02:22 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

So the key to getting a job is the presence of a criminal history. I can't help wondering how well that works for someone with a criminal history and a college or technical degree. Have a degree and can't find a job? Commit a crime. Sad.


Nope.  There is not a single documented case of someone committing a crime and willing to put up with incarceration for the sake of better jobhunting.




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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 11:09:01 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

Putting prisoners of both genders to work


Oh the locked up ones... 

I thought you were talking about the bond slaves for a sec there LOL


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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 12:14:27 PM   
calamitysandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

So the key to getting a job is the presence of a criminal history. I can't help wondering how well that works for someone with a criminal history and a college or technical degree. Have a degree and can't find a job? Commit a crime. Sad.


Ever thought about the kind of job and level of pay involved?

Stop looking at just about everything besides your bitter self when it comes to where you are in life.

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