UtopianRanger
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Ranger, the feeling is mutual. I admire your posts too, and I'm frankly disappointed this conspiracy nonsense has claimed you, too. I understand not trusting the government, and questioning authority and not liking George W. Bush. But I don't see how any of those things are incompatible with the basic outline of what happened on 9/11.
I am very respectful of differing opinions, and you will notice that I have not criticized you personally, and I have not accused you of believing in space aliens (you haven't exactly said what you *do* believe, either, apart from saying the government is behind it). Having said that, there are some problems with what you're saying here.
Thanks for being a gentleman. And I have read some fairly outlandish comments that even I don’t agree with. But a few outlandish comments from certain folks do not warrant placing all of us who disagree with the government’s accounting of 9-11 into the same box.
I’ll tell ya….When I watch John McCain and a few other Senators, constantly come before the American people and in more less condensed speech, tell the whole country that if we kick fifteen million people out and enforce the laws already on the books, the whole country is going to fall apart –- And then I see folks parroting that same message onto discussion boards, I could think or say : What a bunch dumb-ass, naïve suckers who’ve succumbed to social engineering. But I wouldn’t because I think we need to be respectful of others. After all, we can challenge and disagree with their opinions without referring to them as dumb asses, whackos and nutjobs.
Personally…. After watching and being a part of this for the last six years, I think anyone who doesn’t thoroughly question the actions/motives of this government is an absolute fool. Every Smart dude throughout history, from Plato to Jefferson, has told us to keep a watchful eye over government and ‘’Trust not blindly’’ – But I take it a step further – I don’t trust them at all. Their actions speak much louder than words.
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1 is that your fellow conspiracy theorists have made this bed -- if you follow the links that have been posted here lately to the conspiracy websites, you will see all manner of foolishness. Again, I am not making any of this up. *I'm* not the one making these claims -- the conspiracy theorists are! You can visit the websites and see for yourself. And what is even more comical/sad is this line of thinking that looks like it's captured Chain -- this is the idea that when someone debunks a conspiracy theory, the original theory must've been disinformation! Planted by the government to discredit the conspiracy theorists!
First of all, I’m on dial-up, so I can’t even fathom trying to download one of these films. And to be totally honest, outside of reading from the web site ‘’Scholars for 9-11 truth’’ I have never watched one of these videos.
As far as the Conspiracy theories and the debunking part? – Its completely subjective. There’s all sorts peculiarities and questions ; There is no absolute truth.
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#2 is that the question of what happened on Sept. 11 is not a matter of opinion -- it is a matter of fact. Either 19 Islamic jihadists hijacked some airplanes and flew them into buildings (or a field in PA, in one case), or they did not. And either the US government was behind it, or it wasn't. There are mountains of evidence that support the official version of events, and not a shred of evidence to support any of the conspiracy theories.
Sorry brother. I actually hold an opinion which is completely contrary to that of Ward Churchill’s : I Absolutely do not believe for a second, that a bunch of fanatical, scrawny bums, dressed in filthy pajamas and sandals, could come over to the United States and mastermind a plan that could kill three thousand people and take those two towers and building number seven down, without help from insiders or some kind of rogue element of the government.
As far as there not being a shred of evidence to support any of the conspiracy theories? That’s complete conjecture on your part. Again….. There’s many questions and peculiarities that just don’t make enough sense for me to ‘’jump on the bandwagon’’. I rely on my analytical nature and my gut instincts before I get on the carpet and kneel to big brother – I’ve got a stomach ache.
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If someone claims that 1+1 = 3, am I obligated to respect their opinion? We're not discussing whether the Iraq war was justified (something about which reasonable people can disagree) or whether Bush should have been re-elected (likewise)...we're discussing a basic matter of fact. You've said you don't trust the government. Fine. I don't trust it either. Why are having an untrustworthy government and having 19 jihadist hijackers fly some planes into buildings on 9/11 mutually exclusive ideas?
Trying to compare the absoluteness of simple mathematics with conjecture is ridiculous and doesn’t serve you well.
This is the biggest problem I have with the Keane-Hamilton sycophants/fans. If you were to ask many of these people if they trust Bush with the Budget, Iraq, Yellow-cake Niger, Haiti, or National security wire taps, many would be upset and say hell no, but the minute you move to 9-11, you leave the arena of respectability and enter one of which is considered, paranoia, conspiracy, Tin foil hats, or better yet ‘’ Kook Land’’ HAR!! That makes no logical sense!! Why and how can anyone believe they would lie about all those things and not lie about 9-11?
It’s a generational compoudedness, that’s been engrained if the everyday, honest, hard-working American citizen. ‘’Trust your Government’’ They look from within, and can not and will not see such utter diabolic ness in themselves, so therefore are truly incapable of self-projecting such pure evil on to anyone else. The methodology just isn’t there for them to understand; and there’s no database for them to study and conquer.
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Where have I used a derogatory comment, let alone one that refers to you personally? If this came up at a party, you're damn right I would challenge it. Sept. 11 is something I feel very strongly about, and I'm very concerned that these conspiracy theories are taking root in people. I'm not sure if everyone has all of a sudden just abandoned their critical thinking skills, or this is the chickens coming home to roost after Vietnam/Watergate and everything that followed to erode people's trust in their leaders. Whatever the cause, it is tragic, because we've got real political problems in this country, and we have real external enemies who would like to inflict great harm on us, and this conspiracy nonsense is a distraction from reality.
You can challenge it. You are challenging it. I just ask that when you read something in which you believe to be totally outlandish, address that person directly and don’t make passive aggressive, negative comments to another poster that insuiates and lumps us all together in one box.
After all….If you can compare and differentiate extrapolating the kind of lie about Yellow–Cake in Niger as opposed to mean the government is lying about 9-11 , then you are quite capable of doing the same with regard to those of us who are clearly making outlandish statements vs. those of us who bring up peculiarities and deviations from conventional logic.
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Ranger -- with all due respect, failing to secure the borders is not evidence that the government is behind 9/11. It is a good question that you ask. But, equally plausible explanations are simple mismanagement, incompetence, negligence, misplaced priorities, or plain and simple bad politics. I'm a believer in Occam's Razor, and until someone shows me a fact supported by evidence that the government is behind 9/11, I'm reluctant to attribute to malice what is more likely attributable to stupidity.
You’re making us both look stupid here. You mean to tell me that shortly after 9-11, the government produced this historical, sophisticated, quasi-fascist legislation known as Patriot Acts I and II {Yes, they’ve even taken the time to make more ambiguous, intrusive modifications} for purposes of greater internal security, yet you attribute mismanagement, misplaced priorities and bad politics {Just to name a few} for not protecting our borders or making any decisive, external modifications that would make this country any safer? Man… talk about over simplification, you’ve just given one of the best of most complete examples I’ve ever seen. But for me, I just can't reduce it to that level, theres much more to it than that.
- R
< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 5/2/2006 8:41:10 PM >
_____________________________
"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."
-General George S. Patton
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RE: Documentary on 9-11 - 
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