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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 8:39:42 AM   
Aynne88


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Angelika you are way too nice. You really are.


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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 8:53:42 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

If you choose to continue to drive as recklessly as you claim and you say nothing and don't fight anything with your employer, then no one BUT you is responsible.

I did say something many times to my direct supervisor. A year and a half later, the situation was temporarily resolved. Whether or not the situation will still be resolved depends on the new hire.

Get a group of you together, put together a presentation and bring it to your employer.  You said you are afraid to do that, but yet you don't seem afraid to drive recklessly to maybe kill someone, but yu are afraid to talk more with your employer? 

I care or I wouldn't arrange a ride from someone as often as I can. When I do have to drive, I also care enough to get myself off the road as quickly as possible.

Sorry, this is why you are losing my support of your problem. 

angel



From what I've gathered from your previous posts, I never had your support. While you have offered advice on how to possibly resolve the situation, the fault of employees being too afraid to take that advice falls on corporate management. I intended to bring up the issue and was trying to come up with the best approach before their threats stopped me. You don't seem to think the company should be blamed at all. I did find your advice about parking and sleeping at the corporate office amusing. While that's not an option for someone with a curved spine, maybe if enough night shift workers did that....

< Message edited by defiantbadgirl -- 12/27/2010 9:02:20 AM >


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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 9:05:05 AM   
sexyred1


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As someone said earlier, most companies today are "at will" employers, meaning they can fire you at will.

With today's unemployment, it would not seem prudent to make such a big deal about a once a month meeting. I know tons of unemployed executives who would love to have this problem.

In my career I have been stuck overnight in airports numerous times and gotten home hours and hours later than I was supposed to, had like 2 hours sleep and still had to get up and go to a meeting if required by my companies.

If I did not like it, I could quit or complain. Sometimes you have to suck it up and do what you need to do to keep your job.

There are very few laws that impact most employees unless you are in a union.

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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 9:06:15 AM   
angelikaJ


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In this case, I do have experience with working in residential group homes.

The same house and 2 different agencies.

Agency A never saw call outs as an automatic excuse to mandate their employees for overnight shifts.

Manadated overnights are for "emergencies" and a call out isn't one of those.
The managers were resposible for either filling the shift or getting the shift filled.
It led to a coopertive and collaborative atmosphere with creative solutions for getting shifts filled and covered.

Agency B saw call outs differently.
There was no responsibility for managers to cover shifts and so a 4-12 would be easily mandated on an awake overnight and then on much less than 6 hours sleep (as the shift was over at 10a) come back and fulfill their next 4-12.

I could never sleep if I had to stay up all night... and knowing that I had to be back in at 4pm again...? Forget it... sleep would never happen. And if I went in there was a 50-50 that I might get mandated again... but on zero sleep this time, after being up for 40 or so hours.

I did argue the point: you would fire me if I came here to work drunk and sleep deprivation is shown to be as dangerous as that.

The difference is that I would not put myself into that position after the first couple of times.
I would tell them the moment I was mandated that I would not be in for the 4-12. Period.
They fussed a lot.
They got over it.

The diffference is I could get away with that (barely... but still) and other people can't always do that.

I always hope that agencies will be more like Agency A and when presented with an opportunity to be coopertive and collaborative with a win-win-outcome the agency will choose that.

edit format error

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 12/27/2010 9:07:14 AM >


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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 9:07:16 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88


Angelika you are way too nice. You really are.



RULE #1: The employer is always right.

RULE #2: If the employer is wrong, refer to rule #1.

God bless corporate America.


_____________________________


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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 9:13:42 AM   
servantforuse


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I guess you could always start your own company. Then you could set the rules.

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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 9:21:19 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

RULE #1: The employer is always right.

RULE #2: If the employer is wrong, refer to rule #1.

God bless corporate America.

It's a shame this book is out of print, you could really use a copy.

The Professional Victim's Handbook:  Stop Working and Start Whining

~stef


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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 9:27:24 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

On a more positive note, at least someone with involuntary manslaughter on their criminal record will have an easier time finding a job (when they get out of prison) than those with no criminal record due to affirmative action.


Oh, please. Now you've lost all my sympathy. Stop being a victim.

I'd like to hear from felons who believed conviction and imprisonment was worth it to get a job at Wal-Mart and from non-felons who were told by an employer, "Sorry, you were more qualified, but we went with the felon so we could get the tax credit."


I have no intention of commiting a felony just to be covered under affirmative action. I was being sarcastic. An old friend of mine used to complain about affirmative action and prisoners getting a free education while incarcerated.


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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 9:35:35 AM   
maybemaybenot


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DFB:

It's a once a month meeting. Big deal. One day a month you get 5 hours sleep instead of whatever your normal is. You won't die and you aren't " impaired ".
This just seems like whining to me. I would bet dollars to donuts you have gone out and partied, gone to a wedding, a funeral, a social event or some damn thing that YOU wanted to go to and didn't get your normal amount of sleep. Is there any one of us who hasn't had some play time that has kept us up longer than normal and just taken a quick nap before going to work.

I might understand if the mandatory meeting were excessive, but they aren't.

                    mbmbn

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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 9:36:03 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

RULE #1: The employer is always right.

RULE #2: If the employer is wrong, refer to rule #1.

God bless corporate America.



If I walk into a restaurant, I expect to get what I want, how I want it.  Because I'm paying.

Same on the job.  As a professional, it's my responsibility to explain the situation as best I can and make recommendations.  Should my management overrule me after I've made my case, so be it.


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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 9:53:03 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

People like you are why people like me have to pay exorbitant sums for commercial liability and workers compensation policies. It's once a fucking month, deal with it. Oh and when I put up a mandatory meeting notice, it's not a threat, it's a company policy. You don't like them? Fine. I have a dozen other people in an economy with almost 11% unemployment waiting to work and not whine about a monthly meeting. 

It only takes once for someone to fall asleep at the wheel resulting in a fatal accident. Are you against driving while intoxicated? Are police officers whining when they complain about drunk drivers? Driving when deprived of sleep has been shown to impair drivers equal to driving under the influence.
Manslaughter? You have got to be kidding me. I am adding a ten page psych evaluation to my hiring process from now on to weed out people that equate a monthly meeting that interrupts their sleep as possible manslaughter charges on the employer.



What would your reaction be if one of your employees fell asleep at the wheel and died or killed someone in a car crash because meeting your demanding schedule deprived him/her of sleep? Perhaps you should consider having a psych evaluation to see if you lack a conscience when you can find time away from protecting your bottom line.


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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 10:22:07 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

People like you are why people like me have to pay exorbitant sums for commercial liability and workers compensation policies. It's once a fucking month, deal with it. Oh and when I put up a mandatory meeting notice, it's not a threat, it's a company policy. You don't like them? Fine. I have a dozen other people in an economy with almost 11% unemployment waiting to work and not whine about a monthly meeting. 

It only takes once for someone to fall asleep at the wheel resulting in a fatal accident. Are you against driving while intoxicated? Are police officers whining when they complain about drunk drivers? Driving when deprived of sleep has been shown to impair drivers equal to driving under the influence.
Manslaughter? You have got to be kidding me. I am adding a ten page psych evaluation to my hiring process from now on to weed out people that equate a monthly meeting that interrupts their sleep as possible manslaughter charges on the employer.



What would your reaction be if one of your employees fell asleep at the wheel and died or killed someone in a car crash because meeting your demanding schedule deprived him/her of sleep? Perhaps you should consider having a psych evaluation to see if you lack a conscience when you can find time away from protecting your bottom line.



Now dfb, I do have empathy for you... however, at this point you are taking it too far.

You do have time to go home and nap before the meeting.
You have time to plan ahead to get extra rest/sleep the days preceeding the meeting.

There are people every day who work 12 hour shifts, go home for 8 and go back in for 12.
I don't think it is necessarily the best way to get the best quality of work but there are people who can do it.
There are people who love to work those hours because on their off days it gives them the most time with their families.

There are people who in this economy work 2, 3 and sometimes 4 jobs just to make ends meet and they sleep a lot less than you do.

I have empathy and understand the logic but at this point you are making yourself out to be a victim.
It is not doing anything to further your point.

The fact is that those meetings are always going to inconvenience someone...someone is going to have to pay for extra childcare.

You aren't doing yourself any favors by approaching it this way.



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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 10:45:12 AM   
JstAnotherSub


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To the OP

Find out who it would be proper to report your concerns to and report them.  Do it in writing, if you feel the need.

If, after that, they say tough, well, then, tough.

Put your big girl panties on and accept it.  Then you have a choice, as an adult.  You can let it go and be glad to be working, you can quit on principle, or you can keep bitching and whining, knowing it will do nothing but make you and the folks around you grouchy.

I have to go to meetings at least once, most month more than that.  I have to do this and get my regular job done.  Because of folks who bitched about going to these meetings after their regularly scheduled workday, with no compensation, I have to do it during my regular workday, which puts a strain on the rest of my ladies.

I would rather go at a different time, but policy overrides that choice of mine.  When all this happens at the time of the month that I have a pile of reports due, inventory to be done, payroll, and 3 other things that have to be done now, I plan accordingly.  That includes going to bed earlier, since I know I am one grouchylunchlady when I miss my rest.

Whining and offering up such things as "manslaughter" makes you look (to me) like someone just wanting to rant and bitch, rather than someone looking for real solutions to a problem.

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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 10:52:06 AM   
LadyPact


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I'm going to be real honest here.  There is no way to run mandatory meetings in any environment that's know as a "24/7 shop" (meaning there are employees working at anytime during a constant schedule- somebody's always 'on' shift) that is going to please everyone.  Two of the major reasons that some situations are set up as not being directly attached to the shift schedule is that the presentations can't be arranged during those time frames and the other is that people have difficulty making adjustments in their child's care and/or education schedule.  The latter of which puts a lot more undue hardship on folks than missing a couple of hours of sleep.

Yes, most folks vent about having to attend mandatory meetings, especially when they are already on some sort of compressed shift or when you're dealing with situations where people work overnights.  However, the extremes that are attempting to be presented here are getting way over the top.  If anyone can say that they feel that they are in such dire straights over losing a couple hours one time a month, I hope you've never had to schedule a doctor's appointment during the day during your stretch of night shifts, gone to a parent teacher conference, stayed up longer than you should have to watch a movie, or go out with friends.  If none of those things made you fall asleep at the wheel, neither will a mandatory meeting.

LP

Who has never once fallen asleep at the wheel and dealt with these kinds of schedules for a lot of years while My kids were growing up.


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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 11:11:40 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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AngelikaJ, I'm impressed with your understanding of what workers go through and the post you copied wasn't directed at you. Considering the post I was responding to and the snide comment about psych evaluations, I have to disagree that I took it too far. I can't stand people who lack a conscience and I have a habit of calling them on it. You are certainly not one of those people. My situation will likely be resolved soon. I consider others to be victims far more than I do myself. I'm particularly concerned about SpiritedRadiance's situation since she said she goes through it every week. Employers shouldn't have the power to force employees to choose between breaking the law and keeping their jobs. Since jobs are necessary for most people to survive, employees in this situation are being forced to break the law.

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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 11:43:38 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

employees in this situation are being forced to break the law.

No, they're not.  You seriously need to grow up.

~stef


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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 11:47:25 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

AngelikaJ, I'm impressed with your understanding of what workers go through and the post you copied wasn't directed at you. Considering the post I was responding to and the snide comment about psych evaluations, I have to disagree that I took it too far. I can't stand people who lack a conscience and I have a habit of calling them on it. You are certainly not one of those people. My situation will likely be resolved soon. I consider others to be victims far more than I do myself. I'm particularly concerned about SpiritedRadiance's situation since she said she goes through it every week. Employers shouldn't have the power to force employees to choose between breaking the law and keeping their jobs. Since jobs are necessary for most people to survive, employees in this situation are being forced to break the law.


You have to be careful when you discuss breaking the law: what laws are they breaking?
You could argue driving while tired equals reckless driving and if you were driving a truck you would have to fill out a log book to document how many hours you drive.
You can't drive longer than X in a day or work long than Y... .

SpriritedRadience mentioned that she works for a utility company.

If it is an electric company and she has to attend meetings to deal with issues... you might not want her missing them... if there is a power outage, do you think people just up and go home?

There are just not laws that determine what constitutes the average worker driving while tired = driving impaired. It is subjective.
There are an awful lot of medications that people should not drive on without being first aware if their driving is affected by them. For some people ibuprofen makes them drowsy. There are antibiotics that can make other people sleepy; it isn't always pain pills and antihistamines.

My housemate works for the highway department for a nearby town.
He plows in the winter; that is part of his job responsibilities. It is not uncommon for him to work his 7-3 shift, then come home in advance of a snow storm, eat and sleep until it begins to snow.
Then he will get up and go plow as part of his job.
When it stops snowing if it is before 3:30pm he stays until regular his shift is over...even if he went in at 7pm the previous night.
If it is still snowing at 3:30, guess what: he stays.

My point is that while I do have empathy for you, you do need to look at the big picture.
It isn't always the bottom line that determines how things get done.

Those meetings that you attend are mandatory because they are probably connected to licensing requirements. I would not want to be running an agency and have to either explain to the licensers why a bunch of my people had gaps in their attendence records... or have to schedule in-services to make up for the meetings they have missed to fulfill those requirements.

I understand that one wants to do a good job in this field and often it seems like the company's red tape and multiple hoops just gets in the way...but all those rules are as much there for our protection as they are for our residents and our employers.

I am glad it looks as though you have a solution.

Again, you do need to be careful when you mention "breaking laws".

It can very easily look like complaining and like you are being difficult.

Companies like win-win propositions.

edit: spelling

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 12/27/2010 12:05:21 PM >


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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 12:21:20 PM   
MasterCord


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In the rail industry, train crews have an Hours Of Service law.....and it states that an engineer/trainman/conductor can only work 12 consecutive hours before a 10 hour rest period...but then you can be called back to work after that. See below....

●A T&ES (Train & Engine Service) employee may NOT remain or go on duty for a period in excess of 12 consecutive hours.

If a combination of on-duty time and limbo time exceeds 12 hours, the employee must receive 10 hours of undisturbed rest, PLUS the number of hours of limbo time that exceeded the 12 hours on duty. Thus, a 12 hour shift and two hours of limbo time would require 12 hours of undisturbed rest before again reporting for duty.

●A T&ES employee may NOT remain or go on duty UNLESS the employee has had at least 10 consecutive hours undisturbed rest off duty during the prior 24 hours.

Undisturbed rest means just what is says. The carrier may not telephone the employee, page the employee, knock on the door of the employee, or otherwise disturb the employee for 10 hours.

The carrier may, however, send an e-mail message to the employee during this time period. But the carrier may not disturb the employee with a return-to-duty call until after the 10 hour period.

As noted above, if the on-duty time plus limbo time exceeded 12 hours, the 10-hour undisturbed rest time is increased by the number of hours of limbo time.

There is an exception during emergencies, and, also, the U.S. Secretary of Transportation may waive this section for intercity and commuter service if it is consistent with safety.

If the collective bargaining agreement requires the employee have 90 minutes to report for duty following the call, then the employee would have at least 11 ½ hours off duty, as the call could not be made before the 10 hours of undisturbed rest has expired.

●A T&ES employee may NOT remain on duty or go on duty AFTER that employee has initiated an on-duty period each day for six consecutive days, unless that employee has had at least 48 consecutive hours off duty at the employee's home terminal, during which time the employee is unavailable for any service.

This means when you complete the sixth consecutive start day, you must be given at least 48 consecutive hours (not calendar days, but 48 consecutive hours) off duty at your home terminal before you are again required to report for work. This includes yard assignments.

However, if you are released from duty at the away from home terminal at the end of the sixth consecutive start day, you may work a seventh consecutive start day to return to your home terminal. Then, however, you must be given at least 72 consecutive hours (not three calendar days, but 72 consecutive hours) off duty at your home terminal before you are again required to report for work.

If the 276 hour cap occurs on the last day of the month, and you have not completed your mandatory 48 (or 72) consecutive hours off duty at your home terminal, you MUST complete that mandatory time off before again reporting for duty.

If the 276 hour cap occurs at an away from home terminal, the railroad may NOT deadhead you back to your home terminal, as that would violate the law. The FRA must yet determine the manner in which you are returned to your home terminal.

The trigger is initiating an on-duty start for six consecutive days. Even if you work just one hour, the fact that you have initiated an on-duty start that day counts toward the six consecutive days.

However, the count begins anew on any calendar day in which you do NOT initiate an on-duty period. Thus, if you are called for duty Monday-Friday (five start days), and do not work on Saturday, but are called back to work on Sunday, then the six-day clock begins anew on Sunday.

The clock covers all T&ES jobs, meaning it does not matter if you ebb and flow between engineer and conductor jobs, or between extra board and pool jobs. The only trigger is initiating an on-duty period as a T&ES employee.

Note that the six- and seven-day clocks are not applicable to intercity passenger carriers, short haul passenger carriers, and commuter operators at this time.

General chairpersons may negotiate local collective bargaining agreements providing a better balance between time off and earnings, while preserving guaranteed time off.

The U.S. Secretary of Transportation may also waive the “6&2” and “7&3” requirements if the collective bargaining agreement provides for a different arrangement AND the secretary deems it consistent with safety. In no case may a local agreement exceed the 276 hours monthly cap.

The UTU International will provide assistance in these negotiations at the request of general chairpersons. The FRA has indicated that it, also, will provide assistance to general chairpersons for the purpose of assisting in interpreting the law and new regulations pursuant to the law.

LIMBO TIME:

●A railroad may not require an employee to spend more than 40 hours per month in limbo time.

This 40-hour rule begins July 17, 2009, and continues through July 16, 2010. Beginning after July 16, 2010, the carrier may not require an employee to spend more than 30 hours per month in limbo time. The U.S. Secretary of Transportation may adjust that time period beginning July 17, 2011.


There is also a 276 hours per month restriction. I lived this life a long time ago as an engineer....though the deal was not as good as this is today. So the bottom line is...yes.....in some cases you can be forced to work over 8 hours in a day.

I know that similar sitations exist for truckers and shipboard crews.

MC

< Message edited by MasterCord -- 12/27/2010 12:23:53 PM >

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RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 12:27:47 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'm going to be real honest here.  There is no way to run mandatory meetings in any environment that's know as a "24/7 shop" (meaning there are employees working at anytime during a constant schedule- somebody's always 'on' shift) that is going to please everyone.  Two of the major reasons that some situations are set up as not being directly attached to the shift schedule is that the presentations can't be arranged during those time frames and the other is that people have difficulty making adjustments in their child's care and/or education schedule.  The latter of which puts a lot more undue hardship on folks than missing a couple of hours of sleep.

Yes, most folks vent about having to attend mandatory meetings, especially when they are already on some sort of compressed shift or when you're dealing with situations where people work overnights.  However, the extremes that are attempting to be presented here are getting way over the top.  If anyone can say that they feel that they are in such dire straights over losing a couple hours one time a month, I hope you've never had to schedule a doctor's appointment during the day during your stretch of night shifts, gone to a parent teacher conference, stayed up longer than you should have to watch a movie, or go out with friends.  If none of those things made you fall asleep at the wheel, neither will a mandatory meeting.

LP

Who has never once fallen asleep at the wheel and dealt with these kinds of schedules for a lot of years while My kids were growing up.



College students and those who are on the clock (including people on the clock at a second job) are excused from attending. I think there are family laws that protect parents. Otherwise no company would hire them because their child(ren) could be sent home from school or daycare due to illness. Losing a few hours of sleep isn't a big deal unless an employee has worked all night the night before the meeting, has to go to the meeting in the middle of the day, and is then expected to stay up all night again after attending the meeting. It's alot bigger deal when one considers the number of hours employees are required to stay awake. I'd love to take a stand for my co-workers, but I can't risk it until I get a second job. So far, I've been unsuccessful because everywhere I've applied wants employees who can work weekends. I already work weekends. My roommate thinks the corporate office should have 2 meetings. Another option would be to schedule the overnight weekend shift for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights instead of Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights. There's alot they could do. They just won't. Instead, they prefer to threaten us.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Is there a law on length of time between shifts? - 12/27/2010 12:34:10 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline
Dbg. You mentioned you make 8.50 an hour. Perhaps if you stop playing a victim and whining about what your employer require of you, you may find yourself in a situation to better your position. You can think of it this way. If your irresponsibility of driving carelessly you could have a different position from what I understand. So maybe you should look at this as the consequences of you actions puts you in a position where you get less sleep once a month. Instead of blaming the company and try and place liability on them when the liability is YOURS. That's what you aren't getting. If you get in a car and feel you shouldn't be driving then the responsibility is yours period. What you are saying is any company that mandates it's employees to come to work are liable. BS. If you aren't on the clock, YOU are responsible for your decision to drive. No one else. You know what the company expects of all it's employees. The company doesnt make anyone break the law as it doesn't mandate how you get there. It simple says you need to be there.

Angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 60
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