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RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 3:39:05 AM   
allthatjaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

"its not Islam we have been at war with but a small fraction of radical Islamic fighters who don't represent Islam as a whole."

Yeah thats the PC line.

But no one has explained to me how this itsy bitsy teeny weeny insignificiant microscopic minority can train, raise money, and recruit in complete secrecy.
And the fact is, they cannot; as is becoming increasingly clear from the nature of those who are "ratted out"- for every terrrorist (wannabe) dozens if not scores if not hundreds of others have reason to be suspicious of him.

The PCisms also do not explain 27% of British Muslims- British, not non-western- admitting (admitting!!!!) they would not report knowledge of another, impending subway attack. 

The PCisms also just flat dismiss history and the Koran itself.

We beleive what we are conditioned to believe, and Americans are conditioned to such hyper-tolerance that most of us reject the possibility of a true, pure, religious war even as mullahs wordwide beat the drum for it.




Where did you get these percentages from? How many people actually took part in the survey? Where is the link? There are 2 million Muslims in the UK. Were all of that 2 million asked the question?
Do you believe that the Muslim family that work in your corner shop are would- be jihadist? Do you believe that every time a Muslim religious man says something idiotic, that all of his congregation think like he does?
The goons that mocked the coffins of the British soldiers are only representatives of the tiniest minority of unsavouriness but lets not tar every Muslim with the same brush.
Your really bothered aren’t you truckinslave?! Did your local butcher refuse to sell you pork? Is sharia law winning?
In actual fact, the Muslims of Britain integrate well and the majority of us are very comfortable with them. We don’t see them as are our enemy and we are not afraid of them.



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(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 4:41:45 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I swear, it's like playing Whack-a-Mole around here sometimes, ain't it?

K.



It really is XD

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 4:48:43 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

"Sounds like good old Boston Catholics taking up a collection to send to Sinn Fein. "

For the political reunification of the auld country, not just to kill Protestants for their faith.




Tell that to all the dead Protestants. You seem to justify stuff as religious or not depending on your argument.

The whole schism between the two faiths in Ireland traces directly to the clash between the same faiths that was going on throughout Europe during the later middle ages.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 4:51:28 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Apparently you are using a novel definition of religious.

Either that, or your superpowers are performing their typical self-justificatory function.

Religious designations are sometimes used as shorthand for cultural and historical differences between combatants, giving the often misleading impression that the conflict is primarily about religious differences.

Red herring deleted. Please stay on subject.

These are facts, Croats, Serbs, and Bosniaks all speak the same language, eat the same foods, share the same culture in all ways but one. That only difference amongst them is religion.

The Serbs national identity is tied up in being the people who stopped the spread of Islam, the Battle of Kosovo. Milosevic specifically embraced that position in his speech at the 600th anniversary of the battle which led directly to Serbian militancy during the breakup of Yugoslavia.

During the fighting in Bosnia the Serbs specifically used the term Crusader for their forces, directly referencing the Christian wars on Islam. Muslim fighters, calling themselves Mujahideen (means 'people doing jihad'), came from all over the muslim world to help defend the Bosniaks.

The conclusion is inescapable, the Bosnian conflict was about the religions of the different parties.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 5:03:47 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Please don't make me regret this.

Why?

And, why just Catholics in Ireland? If it is truly religious in nature, why aren't Italian Catholics, say, fighting a religious war against Protestants? Swedish Catholics? Argentenian Catholics?



Because in Ireland there is 400 years of history getting in the way. You seem convinced not all Catholics hate all Protestants, and vice versa, which is true. Yet you cant, or wont, display the same courtesy to all Muslims.

Recently there was a case of a father who reported his son to the authorities. I am sure this isnt the only time it has happened so to tar a whole faith with the same brush is indeed sad, as well as ignorant.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 5:04:19 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Try that again.

Try thinking...

Neither the motivation, the alleged offense and justification, nor the goal, are religious.

K.


This is what I thought was a pretty well-stated summary that disagrees with your view:



Was the Kosovo crisis an ethnic conflict or a religious conflict?

There have been a series of struggles for independence during the 1990's in the area once covered by the country of Yugoslavia: This series started in 1990 in Slovenia; 1991 in Croatia; 1992 in Bosnia Herzegovina. Each of these conflicts have often been described as an "ethnic conflict."

In reality, the Serbs, Croats, Slovenes and Muslims in those countries share a common Slavic ethnic origin. They view themselves today as distinct peoples, largely because of their different religious heritages.

Peter Black, senior historian at the United States Holocaust Museum commented:

"In the Balkans, religious identification became part of national identity, as expressed through language and the communication of the national myth. Thus, being Orthodox is part of being Serbian."


....So, the Kosovo conflict was fueled by differences of:

Ethnicity: between Serbs, of Slavic origin, and ethnic Albanians who are Illyrian in origin.

Religion: between Serbs, who are almost entirely followers of the Serbian Orthodox Church, and non-Serbs, who are overwhelmingly followers of Islam, and Roman Catholicism. There is also a minority of ethnic Albanians who follow the Albanian Orthodox Church. However, there would be no significant friction, on religious grounds, between Albanian and Serbian Orthodoxy.

As in all conflicts involving ethnicity, religion, national aspirations, economics, etc., there was no single cause of the Kosovo war.
However, in our opinion, it is not much of an over-simplification to view the war in Kosovo as largely a religious conflict between:

Serbs who overwhelmingly belong to the Serbian Orthodox Church,

Ethnic Albanians who are mainly Muslims, and

A Roman Catholic minority.

(Yugoslavia-Kosovo)



(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 9:17:21 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Neither the motivation, the alleged offense and justification, nor the goal, are religious.

This is what I thought was a pretty well-stated summary that disagrees with your view:


Well, if a bunch of Baptists and Catholics get into a fight over the location of a survey line separating their collective properties, would that be a case of "religious violence" because the only difference in the make-up of the people involved is their religion? Isn't that overlooking something? Black himself acknowledges:

In the Balkans, religious identification became part of national identity, as expressed through language and the communication of the national myth. Thus, being Orthodox is part of being Serbian.

Isn't it overlooking something to call it a religious war when the Muslims were viewed as traitors? A heretic or an infidel can convert, a traitor can't. So maybe the debate should really be over what, exactly, defines a conflict as a "religious war".

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/30/2010 9:55:45 AM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 10:21:47 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I swear, it's like playing Whack-a-Mole around here sometimes, ain't it?

K.


more like Whack-a-Troll

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 10:45:20 AM   
GotSteel


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Calling their religion part of their ethnicity, fine whatever. The thing is that doesn't stop their religion from also being.....well....their religion. When the term ethnic is used to mean religious the terms ethnic war and religious war become interchangeable.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 12/30/2010 10:47:13 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 11:30:54 AM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Calling their religion part of their ethnicity, fine whatever...

I don't what you're talking about, and neither do you. Where in my post do you see the word "ethnic"? And by the way, in case you didn't notice, the question was what, exactly, defines a conflict as a "religious war".

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/30/2010 11:35:26 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 12:08:29 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
the question was what, exactly, defines a conflict as a "religious war".

Pretty obviously it is an armed conflict where one or more of the parties is motivated by their religion or the religion of their targets.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 12:14:24 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I swear, it's like playing Whack-a-Mole around here sometimes, ain't it?

K.


more like Whack-a-Troll



or whack a chimp....oops, same thing.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 1:01:49 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Pretty obviously it is an armed conflict where one or more of the parties is motivated by their religion or the religion of their targets.

Well in this case, the evidence -- including even the quoted statements of those disposed to characterize it as a "religious war" -- is that the motivations were wounded nationalistic pride and revenge.

But frankly, I think calling it a "war" (of any kind) and charging those who prosecuted it as "war criminals" places both the events and the actions of the guilty parties in a context they do not deserve. War crimes are crimes committed in extraordinary circumstances. There were no extraordinary circumstances here. It was from its inception pure, premeditated, wholesale murder.

Karadzic announced the planned genocide months before the tragedy unfolded. He stated in the Bosnian Parliament, “One entire people will disappear from these soils…!” The massacre was neither collateral, nor the outcome of circumstances; it was the goal from the start. This was no war. This was a deliberate and horrific mass slaughter of human beings carried out by a gang of criminal thugs.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 1:09:00 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Pretty obviously it is an armed conflict where one or more of the parties is motivated by their religion or the religion of their targets.

Well in this case, the evidence -- including even the quoted statements of those disposed to characterize it as a "religious war" -- is that the motivations were wounded nationalistic pride and revenge.

But frankly, I think calling it a "war" (of any kind) and charging those who prosecuted it as "war criminals" places both the events and the actions of the guilty parties in a context they do not deserve. War crimes are crimes committed in extraordinary circumstances. There were no extraordinary circumstances here. It was from its inception pure, premeditated, wholesale murder.

Karadzic announced the planned genocide months before the tragedy unfolded. He stated in the Bosnian Parliament, “One entire people will disappear from these soils…!” The massacre was neither collateral, nor the outcome of circumstances; it was the goal from the start. This was no war. This was a deliberate and horrific mass slaughter of human beings carried out by a gang of criminal thugs.

K.

You still evade the central point of the conflict. The sole identifying characteristic of the people targeted and those doing the targeting was their religion. That makes the war religious.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 1:17:56 PM   
Steponme73


Posts: 552
Joined: 11/9/2007
Status: offline 		Muslims are ignorant...not stupid (well, maybe stupid too). The problem with their religion is if you question something they kill you! No, they don't correct you, they KILL YOU!!! They also want to kill everyone who is not a Muslim. Liberals don't have sense enough to realize that. Liberals think if you bow down and kiss their ass they will let you live. Well, they won't...they will kill you too.
Muslims don't care if you are a Democrat, Republican, Tea Partyer, or whatever. They want to kill all of us.
It is a shame that Liberals are soooo stupid. Liberals are going to die saying, "but, but we are with you Muslims."

The only thing that will save the liberals are the conservatives...we won't quit and we get it!!!

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 1:21:52 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Hopefully somebody who's chucked their dummy out of the pram about all conservatives being tarred with the same brush in posts by evil liberals will be along to complain about this post shortly.

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 1:48:01 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You still evade the central point of the conflict. The sole identifying characteristic of the people targeted and those doing the targeting was their religion. That makes the war religious.

I'm not evading anything. That's only your opinion, not a fact. And it shows what a whore reason can be in the service of virtually any kind of bias that can infect the human mind. The people who committed this travesty weren't motivated by their religious faith. They didn't see themselves as righteously doing God's will. They don't have even that thin excuse. And you don't appear to have one either. It looks to me like the only thing that makes the war "religious" in your opinion is your opinion of religion.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/30/2010 2:08:16 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 1:50:20 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		OMG girl, seriously:
"In Assam, an extremest group named Manmasi National Christian Army (MNCA) with around 15 members from the Hmar ethnic group"

Do you not see the absolute desperation you exhibit in your quest for that most weak-minded sacrament of liberal theology: moral equivalence? 

Mote. Log. Learn the difference. Use sound judgement. It's weak to say this thing is the same as that thing. It's not.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 1:52:51 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Steponme73
The only thing that will save the liberals are the conservatives...we won't quit and we get it!!!

Well, then there is nothing to worry about, is there? All is well that ends well.

(in reply to Steponme73)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Islam and illogic - 12/30/2010 1:53:53 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		It's a well-known poll taken pretty shortly after the bombings. You can find it if you so desire.  If you don't care to, don't.

74% increase in your Muslim population since your last census. Extrapolate that out, you'd better start learning Farsi or Arabic.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 140
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