Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Why our kids are failing


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Why our kids are failing Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 1:36:21 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/28/AR2010122804332.html?hpid=topnews

In the version of history being taught in some Virginia classrooms, New Orleans began the 1800s as a bustling U.S. harbor (instead of as a Spanish colonial one). The Confederacy included 12 states (instead of 11). And the United States entered World War I in 1916 (instead of in 1917).

These are among the dozens of errors historians have found since Virginia officials ordered a review of textbooks by Five Ponds Press, the publisher responsible for a controversial claim that African American soldiers fought for the South in large numbers during the Civil War.

Five Ponds Press gradually expanded to other subject areas, filling a growing portion of Virginia's $70 million-a-year textbook market. Many larger publishers employ professional historians, but all of the books by Five Ponds Press have been written by Masoff, who is not a trained historian. Other titles by her include "Oh, Yuck! The Encyclopedia of Everything Nasty" and "Oh, Yikes! History's Grossest, Wackiest Moments."

Scolnik said Five Ponds is in the process of hiring a professional historian from a Virginia university.

School districts choose textbooks from a list approved by the state. Among the factors is price. The books by Five Ponds Press often are less expensive than those produced by larger publishers.

Historian Mary Miley Theobald, a former Virginia Commonwealth University professor, reviewed "Our America" and concluded that it was "just too shocking for words."

"Any literate person could have opened that book and immediately found a mistake," she said.

Theobald's list of errors spanned 10 pages, including inaccurate claims that men in Colonial Virginia commonly wore full suits of armor and that no Americans survived the Battle of the Alamo. Most historians say that some survived.


There is more. But, with this kind of textbook, is it any wonder our kids are failing in college?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 2:59:38 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
This is not the first time either, I've heard about things like this a few times.

And people wonder why I don't automatically believe "official, published facts" . Thank you for a prime example.

T

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 3:19:51 AM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
That only explains why the kids in Virginia are failing.

pam

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 3:39:20 AM   
shallowdeep


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/1/2006
From: California
Status: offline
Obviously not a good thing, and it does seem to raise some questions about Virginia's textbook vetting process but, honestly, I don't think this sort of error has much of anything to do with educational success. Does it matter exactly how many states joined the Confederacy? Or what year the US entered WWI? In my opinion, not really.

Critical thinking skills are what should actually matter in education – being able to really comprehend, evaluate, and systematically synthesize facts and their context rather than just parrot them back. A good teacher could easily turn the relatively trivial factual errors mentioned into a far more important educational lesson: our information sources, even trusted textbooks, aren't infallible. In a subject like history, even when the facts are perfectly correct, you still run into issues with coverage, emphasis, and interpretation. Relying on just one source is always going to be problematic - and that's what a good education should teach kids. There's a reason no decent college history course uses a sole text. A bigger problem than some mangled historical facts is if kids make it through without ever hearing that something like historiography even exists.

I remember my own fourth grade social studies text had an error. It presented a discredited hoax as fact. My dad caught it and pointed it out, then took me through the process of research to prove there was an error. I wouldn't say that error hindered my education; if anything, it helped solidify my grasp on something more valuable - the need to critically examine the things I was being taught.

I thankfully haven't read the book in question but, honestly, if it doesn't grossly mislead readers about the general gist of things, it's probably not doing much harm. In fact, if it does a good job getting them interested in learning some more about history, I might even consider it a success despite the flaws. Especially at the fourth grade level, fueling the interest to learn is probably more valuable than the actual content. That isn't to say the errors shouldn't be corrected, but you're not going to fail in college because you mistakenly think no Americans survived the Alamo. You're going to fail if you don't know how to go about evaluating the veracity of that statement on your own.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 3:48:38 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
"That only explains why the kids in Virginia are failing"

No, they've had this issue in other states as well. One that comes to mind is Texas.

T

(in reply to gungadin09)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 3:54:20 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
Good analysis shallow, I second it. However if it comes to that, errors should be introduced on purpose. This means the teachers would know about them. Students who discover the errors could get extra credit, as well as reveal the discovery in class.

I think it would be a good idea, but unfortunately that is not what is going on here.

T

(in reply to shallowdeep)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 4:30:05 AM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
I think shallow was commenting more on the importance of teachers having critical thinking and using it themselves, thus teaching it.




_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 7:32:52 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
Tazz?

Just about everything on the MSM is a lie... why worry now?

We live incompetence.  Since 9-11 blunders are wildly rewarded.   Fraud is king.   The jig is up.







(in reply to DMFParadox)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 9:01:06 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I thankfully haven't read the book in question but, honestly, if it doesn't grossly mislead readers about the general gist of things, it's probably not doing much harm.


Ten pages of errors after the review. My best bet is that you didnt even read the article.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to shallowdeep)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 9:17:40 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI&feature=related

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 9:28:09 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
LOL exactly!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 11:02:05 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline
Textbooks always have errors. The kids will not fail in school if they test to the textbook but may go through life with some gross misconceptions. And, school boards have always picked books that are compatible with regional predjudices.

Texbooks have never been factual but only display the pre-concieved notions of the region who buys them. And, texbooks tend to deify the winners and ignore the evil done by popular past leaders.

I'm reminded of an English text that claimed that Mary, Queen of Scots, married James VI of Scotland and had two children, Charles Darnley and James I of England. Whoot, James VI of Scotland and James I of England were the same person just different titles.

Stefan

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 11:14:58 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
These are textbooks used in public schools. The pre-conceived notions they learn there they take with them to college. This is one state. Whats happening in the others? Just because errors have always been there doesnt mean we are teaching our children to the standards they should be taught.

Again, while this isnt the only reason our kids are failing in college, this is a reason that could be easily corrected.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 11:26:39 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
I am not sure if you are saying New Orleans was a Spainish Colonial or not..in fact it was never a Spainish..it belong to the French then we bought it from them. In the last few months of the US Civil War the South did orginize a few small Black units..but no record of them in combat.

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 11:34:03 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Im not saying anything, simply posting what the article stated.

The article stated...

quote:

New Orleans began the 1800s as a bustling U.S. harbor (instead of as a Spanish colonial one).


According to Wiki...


quote:

La Nouvelle-Orléans (New Orleans) was founded May 7, 1718, by the French Mississippi Company, under the direction of Jean-Baptiste Le Moyne de Bienville, on land inhabited by the Chitimacha. It was named for Philippe d'Orléans, Duke of Orléans, who was Regent of France at the time. His title came from the French city of Orléans. The French colony was ceded to the Spanish Empire in the Treaty of Paris (1763). During the American Revolutionary War, New Orleans was an important port to smuggle aid to the rebels, transporting military equipment and supplies up the Mississippi River. Bernardo de Gálvez y Madrid, Count of Gálvez launched the southern campaign against the British from the city in 1779.[14] New Orleans remained under Spanish control until 1801, when it reverted to French control. Nearly all of the surviving 18th century architecture of the Vieux Carré (French Quarter) dates from this Spanish period. (The most notable exception being the Old Ursuline Convent.)[15] Napoleon sold the territory to the United States in the Louisiana Purchase in 1803.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Easy

I would say the article is correct.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 12:06:43 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
FR

I think we're getting off the point here. If it's true that those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, then all these specific facts may or may not matter. The point is, critical thinking was involve in finding these errors, apparently after the fact or almost. Where was the critical thinking aforehand ? In fact where was the critical think in the wuthors of said books in the first place ?

And as far as Black fighting for the south, from what I've read it happened. I don't think there were many, for obvious reasons. But those from abolishinist states probably did. How many ?

Now get this --------

Six million perhaps ?

Critical thinking cuts both ways folks, and it can bite those in the ass who have an agenda. That is why "educatuion" is based primarily on memorization. My friend, and I helped, taught his kids that even if they know the answer is wrong in school, just give them the answer the want. The elder (son) guaduated from a top university with honors after an illustrious high school experience at an academically tough high school. With homors of course. One of the few accepted into EVERY university to which he applied.

More later. But sufficew it to say he learned critical thinking in the home NOT the school, no matter how good it was.

T

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 2:59:10 PM   
flcouple2009


Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

I am not sure if you are saying New Orleans was a Spainish Colonial or not..in fact it was never a Spainish..it belong to the French then we bought it from them. In the last few months of the US Civil War the South did orginize a few small Black units..but no record of them in combat.


Don't give up your day job to write text books.

New Orleans was under Spanish control from 1763 to 1801, see the Treaty of Paris.  There is a reason why much of the architecture in the Vieux Carré (French Quarter) is Spanish.

Still a South Louisiana swamp rat no matter where I may be living

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 3:24:24 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
It was the Spanish rulers of New Orleans that welcomed the Acadians. They wanted more catholic Europeans in the colony.

(in reply to flcouple2009)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 3:24:29 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
Sometimes to the historymaker, it is he who leaves his mark.

BTW, sorry about the typos in my last post here, I couldn't proof it because I got a call and had to go pick someone up.

T

(in reply to flcouple2009)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Why our kids are failing - 12/29/2010 5:00:18 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Critical thinking cuts both ways folks, and it can bite those in the ass who have an agenda. That is why "educatuion" is based primarily on memorization. My friend, and I helped, taught his kids that even if they know the answer is wrong in school, just give them the answer the want. The elder (son) guaduated from a top university with honors after an illustrious high school experience at an academically tough high school. With homors of course. One of the few accepted into EVERY university to which he applied.

More later. But sufficew it to say he learned critical thinking in the home NOT the school, no matter how good it was.



i would have to agree. Critical thinking was not encouraged in my high school, much less in elementary school. What was encouraged was conformity, sucking up, and blind obedience. That changed in college- but by that time, most students didn't care anymore. We were just trying to get through it, pass, with as little effort as possible. The professors wanted us to think critically, have ideas, but couldn't get us to do it. We were too used to just parroting, having our thinking done for us. It's a shame. i learned critical thinking eventually, but i didn't learn it in school.

For the record, i do think it matters that elementary kids are given accurate information. i disagree with the camp that says that "it won't affect the rest of their lives". i think it will. There is a reason we teach history in school. If it didn't matter, why would we bother?

But what appalls me is that even the teachers didn't seem to recognise that this information was false. What did it say, that "...teachers are not reading the textbooks front to back..." and are therefore missing these errors? WHY aren't the teachers reading the textbooks front to back? How can they teach what they haven't even read? Apparently, the state textbook approval people didn't read them too carefully either. And the textbook was written by someone who's not a historian, and collected her information off of the internet, and whose book was chosen simply because it was the cheapest option.

What bothers me about this situation is not the textbook errors themselves so much as the clusterfuck of administrative errors in allowing this crap to even get to the classroom. It seems like everybody involved was just sleeping, on autopilot. Nobody was thinking for themselves. Nobody was taking responsibility. It never even occurred to them that they ought to. This sort of half assed, cursory, go with the flow, follow the path of least resistence, kind of attitude. And i think THAT is what's causing American children to fail.

pam

P.S.- For the record, i've seen college textbooks that were just as full of errors. The professors own textbooks were required reading for the course, so professors, the university, and the publisher made a hefty profit on what was, often, a sloppily written and ineffective book, that was churned out in different "editions" every six months, to keep everybody's pockets lined. (Except the students, of course).

Look, i have no problem with being required to buy a book the teacher wrote as part of the class. But so often it seemed like there were no standards for these books. They were written with the minimum possible amount of effort to make the maximum possible profit, and the teacher was pretty much guaranteed to have his/her book approved for publishing, no matter how crappy the book was. Capitolism is taking down our educational system, i guess. i just don't know.

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 12/29/2010 5:49:59 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Why our kids are failing Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109