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Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/29/2010 10:52:50 PM   
ThePeripatetic


Posts: 139
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline 		Last night I went to the local fetish club which I've frequented a handful of times. Shortly after arriving a friend of mine who I've played with before asked if she could practice some rope-work. Not a problem, done it plenty of times. After she had tied a basic shibari chest harness with my hands behind me she then asked if she could show me how she's improved with her single-tail skills. Again, no problem, nothing new for me. I ended up on my knees with my head down on a bench, backside exposed for the single-tail.

So we get probably 10-15 minutes into it and I start feeling a bit nauseous and extremely hot. My whole body breaks out sweating and I become very dizzy and a bit disoriented. I don't remember exactly what I told her to make her realize I was feeling unwell but she immediately stopped with the single-tail and proceeded to undue the ropes quickly. Some other folks were able to get some cold wet towels to cool me off and brought me some water. I rested for a bit and was able to recover pretty quick, feeling totally recovered after about an hour. And I felt fine the rest of the night to the point that I was able to do a rope suspension toward the end of the night which was great. And today I feel completely okay, although my rear end is a bit sore but that is nothing out of the norm for me.

My first thought was low blood pressure. But prior to heading to the club (probably an hour or so before playing) I had a soy protein bar, a salad tortilla wrap, some carrots, and a glass of orange juice. When we arrived at the club I drank most of a coke. It was a bit warm in the club but nothing out of the ordinary. As far as the shibari I was wearing and the single tail work, again, none of that even approached the limits of what I know I'm capable of. It was really pretty mild. And I've been completely healthy lately, no type of flu or cold anytime recently. And I feel like I'm in a good mental state as well, no extra-ordinary stress. The friend I was playing with is someone I know fairly well and feel comfortable playing with.

So I'm wondering why my body reacted like that? Has anyone experienced something similar during play? I'm inclined to just shrug it off and chalk it up to being some sort of fluke. Truth be told though, it gave me a good scare. I'd really hate for something like that to be repeated during a more intense scene.

Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. Thanks for reading.
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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 3:59:40 AM   
CherryNeko


Posts: 330
Joined: 12/29/2010
From: Mexico City
Status: offline 		No, it's never happened to me. I really think you should go to the doctor, just in case.

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 8:09:46 AM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		If you are coming down with something, but not yet in the symptomatic phase, that could explain it.

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 9:37:43 AM   
allthatjaz


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Status: offline 		A rope chest harness can put compression on the lungs, even if its not tight. After you had the chest harness put on did you change position and was your head lower than your ass?

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 12:34:30 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic
a basic shibari chest harness with my hands behind me

I googled that. It is similar to what you have in your avatar.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic
a basic shibari chest harness with my hands behind me she then asked if she could show me how she's improved with her single-tail skills. I ended up on my knees with my head down on a bench, backside exposed for the single-tail.

So we get probably 10-15 minutes into it and I start feeling a bit nauseous and extremely hot. My whole body breaks out sweating and I become very dizzy and a bit disoriented.

Some other folks were able to get some cold wet towels to cool me off and brought me some water. I rested for a bit and was able to recover pretty quick, feeling totally recovered after about an hour.

My first thought was low blood pressure. But prior to heading to the club (probably an hour or so before playing) I had a soy protein bar, a salad tortilla wrap, some carrots, and a glass of orange juice. When we arrived at the club I drank most of a coke. It was a bit warm in the club but nothing out of the ordinary.

So I'm wondering why my body reacted like that? I'm inclined to just shrug it off and chalk it up to being some sort of fluke. Truth be told though, it gave me a good scare. I'd really hate for something like that to be repeated during a more intense scene.

You ought to in any case inform future play partners to be alert for the signs.

Yes, your dizziness, disorientation and nausea to me indicate low blood pressure - or rather low oxygen content. Also, it was not a fluke.

Allow me to speculate.

First of all the basic shibari chest harness. I would be inclined to dismiss it. However: there is such a thing as the Pavlov reaction. You mentioned that it was slightly warm in the club. That would cause your outer blood vessels in the skin to dilate and you to start sweating, if ever so slightly.
Now let's assume that your body had been conditioned to increase its heat production in similar circumstances to compensate for a slight chill. The dilated blood vessels in your skin would sluice away this heat and the Pavlov reaction would continue. I still think that in itself this is a minor, though contributing factor in your symptoms.

2. Shortly before you had been eating all kinds of foods. To digest that food requires energy. Thus this is a second - and important contributing - factor that causes your core temperature to heat up. Again your outer blood vessels in the skin get the signal to dilate in order to sluice away this high core temperature.

3. In the club itself you drank a coke. Presumably it was cold. This would lower your core temperature, but biophysical feedback mechanisms would quickly counter this lowering of your core temperature, causing your core temperature to strongly rise - and your outer blood vessels in your skin to dilate even more.

4. You got whipped. That causes the blood vessels in the skin to dilate strongly (as does spanking), hence the red skin after whipping or spanking.

Thus we have possibly four factors, some stronger than others, that caused your outer blood vessels to dilate. Also we have had factors causing your core temperature to rise. One of such factors is likely that in a see-saw reaction when those outer blood vessels dilated, the core blood vessels constricted. Thus blood - and therefore oxygen - was pushed out of your body and head by the constricting blood vessels and sucked into the dilating blood vessels in your skin. This caused your dizziness and disorientation and may have contributed to your nausea.
The core blood vessels being constricted, the induced higher core temperature could not be transferred to the periphery of your body. Thus you overheated. This overheating is what caused you to eventually break out in sweat. It also may have contributed to your nausea; I can imagine that an instinctive reaction would be to throw up when the core overheats.

So, eat less before a session and do not drink so much cold coke immediately before a session. Also, if it is warm wait a bit to acclimatize.

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 1:28:56 PM   
allthatjaz


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Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		Rule, are you saying that you don't think it was anything to do with the Shibari chest harness? If so, I strongly disagree.
There are clear dangers to any type of bondage and that includes chest harnesses. Its called 'impaired circulation'.
Chest harnesses can be strenuous on the rib cage, especially if your put into a static position.
I have been practiced on by various Shibari experts and twice I have had similar symptoms to the op. I have a small rib cage and generally find that chest harnesses do not allow me sufficient lung expansion for unimpeded breathing. I'm normally okay until I am moved into a static or stretched position.
I have been suspended many times in all sorts of weird and wonderful positions without any problem but been caught out twice with the chest harness.


< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 12/30/2010 1:30:27 PM >

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 1:40:26 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
Rule, are you saying that you don't think it was anything to do with the Shibari chest harness? If so, I strongly disagree.
There are clear dangers to any type of bondage and that includes chest harnesses. Its called 'impaired circulation'.
Chest harnesses can be strenuous on the rib cage, especially if your put into a static position.
I have been practiced on by various Shibari experts and twice I have had similar symptoms to the op. I have a small rib cage and generally find that chest harnesses do not allow me sufficient lung expansion for unimpeded breathing. I'm normally okay until I am moved into a static or stretched position.
I have been suspended many times in all sorts of weird and wonderful positions without any problem but been caught out twice with the chest harness.

Interesting. I had no idea basic Shibari chest harnesses would impede breathing. The OP did not mention that effect. Also I did not consider it because I was focusing on the non-normal circumstances.

No, I did not dismiss the basic Shibari chest harness, but I was focusing on oxygen deprivation and overheating due to changes in the distribution of the blood volume. If the basic Shibari chest harness did impede breathing, that might indeed have contributed to the oxygen depletion, as well as in some measure to core overheating.

The opening poster will have to affirm or deny the breathing impedement by the basic Shibari chest harness.

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 2:00:35 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		If the chest harness was tightened when the op was at full exhale, then there would not have been enough room to take a full breath.
I usually hold my breath fully inhaled when he's tightening around the chest, to make sure when I exhale there will be enough room to breathe in. Lots of quick pants could cause hyperventilation which would also account for those symptoms.


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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 2:39:15 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		More importantly it seems to me, is that he was somewhat bent over and if the bSch constrained his rib cage breathing, then being bent over the belly breathing might be impaired too. But all this bSch speculation is precisely that unless the opening poster denies or confirms it.

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 2:43:58 PM   
allthatjaz


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Joined: 8/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

More importantly it seems to me, is that he was somewhat bent over and if the bSch constrained his rib cage breathing, then being bent over the belly breathing might be impaired too. But all this bSch speculation is precisely that unless the opening poster denies or confirms it.


That was my line of thought. On both the occasions that I had a problem, I was bent forward. That immediately tightened the harness and like you say, interfered with my belly breathing.
Lets hope he comes back.

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 2:44:41 PM   
ThePeripatetic


Posts: 139
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks so much for the responses. You all have mentioned a bunch of factors that I didn't even consider.

As far as going to the doctor, I'm going to hold off for right now. I really do feel fine at this point so therefore I'm attributing my reaction only to playing during that scene and not to some other larger health related issue. I'm not sure how I would explain that to a doctor, "Hey doc, when I get my ass spanked I get a little queasy." That being said, I definitely will be careful the next couple times I play and ask friends to be aware of how I'm responding during the play.

There was never really any point where I thought that the harness might be impeding my breathing. As I said before, I'm quite used to rope being on me so I felt comfortable with the harness. But it's definitely possible that the ropes were affecting me in some way that I was not aware of. FYI the harness was the type where your arms are laid parallel behind your back, tied together, then the rope is wrapped around chest both near ones shoulders and then elbows with rope crossing in between ones breasts or pecs. As for the position, I would say my head was just about parallel with the rest of my body.

Rule... the see-saw reaction you explain might make sense given that in coming to the club I had been outside in snowy conditions, temperature was probably about -5C. Over the course of about one hour I went from the extreme of really cold conditions to being inside the warm club and then shortly thereafter starting the scene.

I'm curious to hear from other subs now how you approach eating before you play. What seems to be the right amount of time to eat or drink something so you don't risk low blood pressure but also give your body sufficient time to digest the food you've consumed? Obviously this differs for player to player but what's your rule of thumb?

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 3:06:36 PM   
SomoneReal


Posts: 65
Joined: 7/5/2010
Status: offline 		You could have been reacting to the bench itself.  What was it made of?  If it's plywood or something similar, than it could have been offgassing formaldehdye, etc...  That would have caused the same reactions that you had.  

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 3:09:41 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic
As far as going to the doctor, I'm going to hold off for right now.

Quite. There is no indication that such a visit is imperative.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic
But it's definitely possible that the ropes were affecting me in some way that I was not aware of. FYI the harness was the type where your arms are laid parallel behind your back, tied together, then the rope is wrapped around chest both near ones shoulders and then elbows with rope crossing in between ones breasts or pecs.

Are you shoulders pulled backwards or can you move them? Can you rib cage breathe?
So your arms are straight, not bend at the elbows?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic
As for the position, I would say my head was just about parallel with the rest of my body.

But was your belly bent at the middle? Could you belly breathe?

Since you stated that you had no trouble breathing, I assume that you could both rib cage and belly breathe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic
Rule... the see-saw reaction you explain might make sense given that in coming to the club I had been outside in snowy conditions, temperature was probably about -5C. Over the course of about one hour I went from the extreme of really cold conditions to being inside the warm club and then shortly thereafter starting the scene.

Actually by see-saw reaction I meant that the blood vessels in the outer body and those in the inner body have complementing constriction/dilation. When blood volume moves away from one part of the body because of constricting blood vessels, it must perforce end up in another part of the blood vessel system that perforce must dilate - or else there is a leak and someone bleeds out.

For example: people with migraine have a white skin because their skin blood vessels are constricted. Physicians for decades if not centuries assumed that the blood vessels in the brains of such patients were also constricted. Consider their shock when in the early years of the 1990 decade it was discovered that the blood vessels in the brains of migraine patients were extremely dilated, triggering the pain receptors in those blood vessels and pressing on the brains themselves. Migraine patients had for all those decades been treated for the wrong symptom!

But yes, if you had been outside and feeling the cold for an extended time, your body would have responded by producing more core heat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic
What seems to be the right amount of time to eat or drink something so you don't risk low blood pressure

To drink theoretically seems to be required, for whipping (and spanking) will cause the blood vessels in the skin to expand.

To eat, I do not know. At a guess: two hours before?


< Message edited by Rule -- 12/30/2010 3:11:04 PM >

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 3:56:30 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

I'm curious to hear from other subs now how you approach eating before you play. What seems to be the right amount of time to eat or drink something so you don't risk low blood pressure but also give your body sufficient time to digest the food you've consumed? Obviously this differs for player to player but what's your rule of thumb?


I eat about 3 hours before. I have a tiny bladder so don't drink much right before. I've always very thirsty afterwards and keep fluids with electrolytes on hand. Before I started with the sports drinks, I definitely felt impaired while driving home. Once I was low on gas and drove right past two gas stations because my reflexes were so slow. (Oh, there goes the gas station! Oh, there goes another one!) Now, I hang out for a little longer and make sure I eat and drink.

Vitamin Water and trail mix are an essential part of my toy bag.

Sometimes I get violent cold shivers afterwards so bring socks and flannel and prepare to dive under the covers.

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 3:59:12 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SomoneReal

You could have been reacting to the bench itself.  What was it made of?  If it's plywood or something similar, than it could have been offgassing formaldehdye, etc...  That would have caused the same reactions that you had.  


Always nice to hear someone else knowledgeable about chemicals/offgassing. I've discovered the joys of silicone recently - hurray for non-stinky toys!

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 6:30:37 PM   
hausboy


Posts: 2360
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Status: offline 		OP:
There are literally about a dozen or more reasons that can cause what you've described.   So a few first things first--monitor yourself closely to ensure that you have NO symptoms of any type of distress other than that isolated incident.  In other words, if you are finding that you are experiencing dizziness, hypoglycemia or any other issues outside of your one night of play, than obviously, it warrants a trip or call into your private physician to discuss and run a few tests.

If, on the other hand, this truly was an isolated incident, you need to look a variety of factors.
Positioning: the positioning during any scene can have an adverse effect, and a combination of poor positioning (note: not a criticism of your or your top, some positions just fare better than others depending on the activitiy) and bondage plus the added endorphins of single tail play may have put you in a "bad way."

I enjoy both rope bondage and single tail play--but I tend not to mix them into the same scene directly--I'm not saying you shouldn't, but consider that each of those activities, by itself, can illicit a physical reaction from your body.  Personally, it has been my experience that for single tails, standing upright/secured or on a St.Andrews  has worked better for single tails. (Lying down makes it considerably harder a target for the top, kneeling on a bench puts unnecessary stress on the joints and spine)

In the position you've described above, you had your arms ties behind you, your head down and you were hunched over---then hit with a single tail.  I'm not surprised at all that your body told you fairly quickly that something wasn't quite right.  The pain and subsequent endorphins from single tails alone can cause the nausea and elevated temp you've described--and if you weren't in a position where you could fully breathe in and out (that position will not allow adequate inhalation and exhalation), then you've got the recipe right there.

Here's my suggestion---benches are great for spanking and caning, but are really not the best choice for single tails and heavy flogging.  For that, I suggest a much more substantial base (like a cross) and a position that allows for your chest to inhale/exhale fully, and one in which your head and spine are in alignment. Just be careful that your arms/hands are not secured too high, causing circulation issues or affect inhalation capacity.  So I'd separate the two--do the elaborate rope bondage and positioning for a separate scene--and stick more to basics for the single-tail.  I also recommend a more hearty meal--what you described would never get me through a heavy scene, so a blood sugar drop isn't out of the question here.



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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 7:25:59 PM   
ThePeripatetic


Posts: 139
Joined: 12/21/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SomoneReal

You could have been reacting to the bench itself.  What was it made of?  If it's plywood or something similar, than it could have been offgassing formaldehdye, etc...  That would have caused the same reactions that you had.  


I believe the bench was covered in vinyl. I've had play on or around this bench previously and never had an issue. While it's possible that I could have just recently developed an allergy to it I don't think that's very likely.

Rule and hausboy: Thank you for the solid advice and insight. Reflecting on this experience I think it makes sense to not mix the shibari with the single tail play. Especially seeing as my friend is still very much in the developmental stages in her rope-work and experience with a single tail. There's definitely a possibility that the ropes were having an unforeseen affect on my body that didn't immediately register. And this could especially be the case given that my position changed dramatically from the one I was in while originally being tied.

I think based on the comments so far and how I'm feeling currently I don't have too much to worry about in terms of my health. I'll just try to take things easy the next time I play, pay attention to my body, and not combine rope with single-tail play. Thanks again for the replies, very helpful!


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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 7:49:32 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		You might google vasovagal reactions   - i have had patients try to pass out after getting stuck for IV's while lying down. It wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination  that this could happen from a beating - fun or not.   And it wouldn't necessarily happen the same way more than once .
s

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 7:59:11 PM   
ThePeripatetic


Posts: 139
Joined: 12/21/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

You might google vasovagal reactions   - i have had patients try to pass out after getting stuck for IV's while lying down. It wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination  that this could happen from a beating - fun or not.   And it wouldn't necessarily happen the same way more than once .
s



Just looked it up. Yeah, seems entirely possible. Thanks for the heads-up.

(side-note: under wikipedia's entry for vasovagal response they have a list of possible triggers. One of the possible causes listed is "arousal or stimulants, e.g. sex". Ouch, that would really suck having regular episodes of this kind of reaction during intercourse! Not fun.)

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RE: Bad Reaction During a Scene - 12/30/2010 8:38:59 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		I've had something similar happen to me, but I wasn't in a harness or bondage of a kind. Just standing at a St. Andrews cross with my arms above my head holding onto handles at the top. It was the first time I've ever been whipped in a standing position. I started to feel detached from myself and light-headed and felt like I was going to pass out. And sure enough, I lost consciousness and fainted. My top was behind me and didn't see my face; he had no clue what was happening....I could hear him talking to me, but I couldn't respond or get words out at all. That was the last thing I remember before fainting. According to him, I just slid right down the cross, and he was able to catch me as soon as he realized what was happening. When I came to, we were both on the floor and I was in his arms. It didn't scare either one of us, and as soon as I felt better and had some juice, we continued on, but I stayed on the floor.

In my case, I think it's a reaction to the pain. I do much better when Im on the floor or on a bed, or on my knees or whatever. And even then, I get a bit woozy at times when the pain gets intense. But as long as I'm down low, I can stave it off by tucking my head down for a few seconds if I feel it coming on. Unfortunately, I can't do that when I'm standing. I'd still like to try it again sometime but at least I know now that fainting is a possibility and something to beware of.

< Message edited by marie2 -- 12/30/2010 8:40:04 PM >

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