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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 2:49:27 PM   
DMFParadox


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I couldn't even begin to troll this thread. Except by letting all parties continue on their vectors. Imagine the lulz smile as I proceed to stir up no trouble at all


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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 2:50:51 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

The Brit men are a docile and domesticated bunch.



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Will you stop doing that !!!!
thats the second time since the new year you have made me laugh out loud.
it was funny, not true by any stretch of the imagination,  and being polite, I'm not gonna point out the obvious, but you caught my funny bone.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 2:58:08 PM   
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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 3:11:48 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Too, I am not sanguine about the mindset some people have which allows them to become so enamored of the flawless beauty of their utopian visions that they are willing to impose them on everyone else by whatever means necessary.


I don't see anyone trying to impose such a vision on American society in this thread, Kirata, even if that were possible.  But, if it were, couldn't you also be charged with imposing the continuation of your own, dystopian, view of society? 

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 3:25:11 PM   
Politesub53


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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Consider too that the Brits are inherently obedient to the Crown.


You seem more fixated with the Crown than any of the Brits on here.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 3:34:42 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I do think casual disregard for the law is pretty common in our country. What I pick up from many of our posters from across the pond, and to our north, is more acceptance of the individual's role in society as that of a subject, rather than a free agent. Maybe the gap is in the American notion that our rights are inherent, and laws that intrude on them are for ignoring, vs. the Old World acceptance of their rights being something granted by king/government?


That's kinda what I was trying to state.  Thanks for rephrasing it so well.

Here we seem to have the cult of the individual.  It has its pluses and its minuses.  There is a strong lawless element, but OTOH, we have a bent for pioneering new things.  As an example, the Japanese are famous for taking an existing process and patiently improving it bit by bit, squeezing an extra half percent of efficiency here, a quarter percent there.  But we Americans developed most of those processes, inefficiencies and all.



Does individualism effect lawlessness? If so, does this mean the 'founding fathers enshrined individual rights in the constitution' (so you say, regularly) for the express purpose of affording people an incentive to break the law?

Sure you're not making the whole thing up as you go along?

I would have thought that the position held by Christianity in United States society, suggests that a lot more of you are taking your lead from the almighty; whereas Europeans threw off such notions of divine guidance many a century ago. You don't seem particularly individualistic from where I'm standing.

Oh and Pahunk, you really need to read the history of United States ventures into foreign countries and how they got the masses on board. The difference between us and you is that you're easily duped by your government and by and large tend to believe any old shite such as WMDs and then all pile into a war; whereas we are cynical about their motives but are too apathetic to make a stand (well a stand with enough momentum to make a difference). Hey, we'd make a good team: we'd provide the insight and you could get the job done with your guns.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 3:53:45 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Does individualism effect lawlessness?


It would, if it were really to exist as the powerful force that it's often claimed to be.  The trick is to make people believe that they have power as individuals when they really don't.  Or - less pessimistically - they have it, but continually fail to use it.


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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 4:35:18 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I don't see anyone trying to impose such a vision on American society in this thread, Kirata, even if that were possible. But, if it were, couldn't you also be charged with imposing the continuation of your own, dystopian, view of society?

Well, you sure reacted promptly enough -- bait, fish, net?

And what, precisely, would be my "dystopian" view of society? Have a link for that? Anything at all?

K.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 5:09:34 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Consider too that the Brits are inherently obedient to the Crown.


You seem more fixated with the Crown than any of the Brits on here.



I think he wants a little crown of his own, or maybe a cute tiara?

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 5:33:34 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

And what, precisely, would be my "dystopian" view of society? Have a link for that? Anything at all?


The vision you have of American society, as you apparently believe it is now, and - in the context of gun-control, at least - the way it 'just must remain'.   Those who can see what they believe to be a realistically-possible future of a gun-free society might feel oppressed by those like you, just as you say you feel oppressed by them. 



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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 5:39:09 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Consider too that the Brits are inherently obedient to the Crown.


quote:


I think he wants a little crown of his own, or maybe a cute tiara?


Blimey.  That conjures up a picture of the UK as though it works pretty much the same way as Siam in The King and I, with an all-powerful king who looks and acts like Yul Brynner.  "Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera."   Far out . . .

Pahunk, it's not really like that here.  Might be fun for a short while if it were,  though.  Hmmm. 

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 5:43:22 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

And what, precisely, would be my "dystopian" view of society? Have a link for that? Anything at all?


The vision you have of American society, as you apparently believe it is now, and - in the context of gun-control, at least - the way it 'just must remain'.   Those who can see what they believe to be a realistically-possible future of a gun-free society might feel oppressed by those like you, just as you say you feel oppressed by them. 


Part of the problem is that it's not realistically possible, because the American people insist that the right of private citizens to own firearms not be repealed. The American public consistently supports the private ownership of firearms by about a 3-2 margin. So... if the Second Amendment were to be repealed, exactly who would be oppressing whom?


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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 5:48:18 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

The vision you have of American society, as you apparently believe it is now, and - in the context of gun-control, at least - the way it 'just must remain'.

What vision do I have of American society?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Those who can see what they believe to be a realistically-possible future of a gun-free society might feel oppressed by those like you, just as you say you feel oppressed by them.

Well yes, I suppose it may very well be true that those in whose view, "The trick is to make people believe that they have power as individuals when they really don't," might feel oppressed by folks who don't like manipulative liars so enamored of the flawless beauty of their utopian visions that they are willing to impose them on everyone else by whatever means necessary.

Fair call. Tough shit, but fair call.

K.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 5:52:53 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

So... if the Second Amendment were to be repealed, exactly who would be oppressing whom?



As far as I'm concerned, were that to happen, a minority, at worst, would feel oppressed.  This is because the Second Amendment would only get repealed if a majority wanted it.  Most people, including me, accept that principle of democracy and see little alternative to it.  My point is that invoking that 'oppression' argument is wrong in the first place, largely for that reason.  However, once invoked, it works in favour of both sides.



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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 5:56:48 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Well yes, I suppose it may very well be true that those in whose view, "The trick is to make people believe that they have power as individuals when they really don't," might feel oppressed by folks who don't like manipulative liars so enamored of the flawless beauty of their utopian visions that they are willing to impose them on everyone else by whatever means necessary.


Yes, true.  Again, that cuts both ways. 

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 6:14:56 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

So you weren't claiming that there was a massive riot in London, then?


So some rich kids went to a march.   How quaint.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 6:20:31 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

So you weren't claiming that there was a massive riot in London, then?


So some rich kids went to a march.   How quaint.



Didn't you understand anything? It wasn't rich kids, it was students protesting against university fees being raised, now if they would have been rich kids why would they have bothered to protest if money is not an issue?

But I distinctively recall how you tried to tell us all that it was a national crisis and the military would be pulled in, martial law would be declared, blah blah, not quite understanding that it wasn't the storming of the Bastille.


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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 6:21:47 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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ORIGINAL: MaroonTide

I'll have to say that the reasons behind the Second Amendment still stand. Americans as a whole should possess the means to overthrow their government if it becomes to onerous. That's what the militias were all about. The laws we have are a compromise between that necessity and the desire to keep the majority of citizens safe from their fellow citizens not accepting of rights.


Yeah, that's about it, alright. The Framers knew exactly what they were doing. They recognized that even the most well-intentioned governments can go out of hand over time, and they wanted to make absolutely certain that they were bequeathing to future generations the mechanism for correcting such an aberration. And they considered it important enough to make it the second of the amendments, right after the one that guaranteed the right to speak freely and be free of religion.



quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda


But what would you suggest? Nothing short of rewriting the Constitution? I'm just struggling to get a handle on where you and Peon are starting from, exactly what you would consider to be the practical solution, what "solved" would look like to you. I don't think I've got an accurate grasp of that at the moment.



To be honest, I don't think there is a short term solution, as a couple of people have pointed out the part of society who shouldn't have guns wouldn't give them up if they'd be made illegal, so you'd still be stuck with them having guns. Changing the Constitution would just cause a riot.

You are simply having a completely different situation than we have here, you got guns all over the place, most European countries don't have have them.



Absolutely correct. And I would add, as I pointed out to Peon, we have a significant majority of the voters who want it exactly that way. Which I suspect is also very different than most, or perhaps any, European countries. It's simply not possible for firearms ever to be banned in the United States, and it never will be. We can probably tinker around the edges, and perhaps enact some regulations to require classes and qualifications for ownership, but the basic framework isn't going anywhere, and that's exactly as it should be.


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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 6:24:57 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

So you weren't claiming that there was a massive riot in London, then?


So some rich kids went to a march.   How quaint.



Didn't you understand anything? It wasn't rich kids, it was students protesting against university fees being raised, now if they would have been rich kids why would they have bothered to protest if money is not an issue?

But I distinctively recall how you tried to tell us all that it was a national crisis and the military would be pulled in, martial law would be declared, blah blah, not quite understanding that it wasn't the storming of the Bastille.



They got the shaft.  They made some noise.  And everyone moved on.

The system still broken, business as usual.

A few thugs made the mod look bad- where they pretty much were just expression free speech- which made the cops on horses kettle the kids- a few windows got broke and the chief of police wants to ban protests- which is fine with the Brits.

Which brings us back to the failed model- it is broke- and business as usual.

Oh- and no protesting ISSSSSSSSSSSS marital law.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/3/2011 6:28:21 PM   
pahunkboy


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Martial,  not marital.    lol

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