Hipocracy is in the House... literally (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 5:31:22 PM)

House Republicans announced Monday that they would vote to repeal health care reform legislation next week. The legislation that they would repeal, according to an estimate by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, would reduce the budget deficit by $143 billion over a decade.


According to the rules laid out by the incoming House Republican majority, the House must pay for all new legislation that increases federal spending - and a repeal bill, of course, is a form of legislation. That would suggest that they must come up with $143 billion to make up for the cost of repealing the health care bill.


The GOP solution? To exempt repeal from that rule.


On page 26 of the GOP rules package, which will be voted on tomorrow, is word that Republicans can "exempt the budgetary effects of legislation repealing the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act and the Health Care and Education Affordability Reconciliation Act of 2010."


(Also exempt, incidentally: The cost of extending the Bush-era tax cuts and the estate tax under the tax deal worked out late last year, changes to the Alternative Minimum Tax, the cost of a 20 percent gross income deduction for small businesses, and the cost of implementing trade agreements. In addition, tax cuts in general do not have to be paid for.)

Republicans defend the exemption by arguing, in effect, that the CBO estimate doesn't reflect the full reality of the health care reform legislation. Shortly before the bill was signed into law, CBO director Douglas Elmendorf noted that the reform bill "would maintain and put into effect a number of policies that might be difficult to sustain over a long period of time." The bill's opponents seized on that comment to argue that the cost savings in the bill are an illusion.


Republicans have been careful to stress that they are not questioning the legitimacy of the CBO, one of the few organizations that both parties can (usually) agree on. When discussing the estimate last year, soon-to-be Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan said that the CBO is full of "great professionals" who "do their jobs well."


"But their job is to score what is placed in front of them," he said. "And what has been placed in front of them is a bill that is full of gimmicks and smoke and mirrors."


In an email, Michael Steel, spokesman for incoming House Majority Leader John Boehner, suggested that it doesn't make sense to pay for repealing a bill that isn't actually going to save any money.


"No one believes that the job-killing healthcare law will lower costs, because it won't," he said.


Democrats, by contrast, say Republicans are trying to make an end run around their own ostensible commitment to fiscal restraint.


Vince Morris, a spokesman for Louise Slaughter (D-N.Y.), told Politico that the provision "allows Republicans to pretend that their campaign promise to repeal the health care bill will have no cost."


UPDATE: Asked about the budget implications of repeal Tuesday afternoon, Incoming House Majority Leader Eric Cantor said: "I think most people understand that the CBO did the job it was asked to do by then the Democrat majority and it was really comparing apples to oranges because it talked about ten years worth of tax hikes and six years worth of benefits. Everyone knows beyond the ten-year window this bill has the potential to bankrupt this federal government as well as the states."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20027180-503544.html



FirmhandKY -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 6:58:40 PM)

I'm not sure I understand ...

It seems like you are saying that the Republican effort not to spend money on Obamacare must be somehow "made up" with cuts elsewhere in the budget?

Firm



tazzygirl -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 7:01:28 PM)

According to the rules laid out by the incoming House Republican majority, the House must pay for all new legislation that increases federal spending - and a repeal bill, of course, is a form of legislation. That would suggest that they must come up with $143 billion to make up for the cost of repealing the health care bill.


The GOP solution? To exempt repeal from that rule.

Are you going to tell me there is no hipocracy in that?



pahunkboy -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 7:09:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

According to the rules laid out by the incoming House Republican majority, the House must pay for all new legislation that increases federal spending - and a repeal bill, of course, is a form of legislation. That would suggest that they must come up with $143 billion to make up for the cost of repealing the health care bill.


The GOP solution? To exempt repeal from that rule.

Are you going to tell me there is no hipocracy in that?


But they were elected??



FirmhandKY -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 7:16:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

According to the rules laid out by the incoming House Republican majority, the House must pay for all new legislation that increases federal spending - and a repeal bill, of course, is a form of legislation. That would suggest that they must come up with $143 billion to make up for the cost of repealing the health care bill.


The GOP solution? To exempt repeal from that rule.

Are you going to tell me there is no hipocracy in that?

Without doing a lot of research, this really sounds kinda strange .... passing legislation that will not cost money - but will actually cut spending - and having to "make up" for the cut elsewhere ... just sounds, dunno ... kinda dumb.

Firm



TreasureKY -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 7:23:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The legislation that they would repeal, according to an estimate by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, would reduce the budget deficit by $143 billion over a decade.


According to the rules laid out by the incoming House Republican majority, the House must pay for all new legislation that increases federal spending - and a repeal bill, of course, is a form of legislation. That would suggest that they must come up with $143 billion to make up for the cost of repealing the health care bill.


Okay, Tazzy... you've lost me on this one, too.

From the two parts I've quoted above, this just doesn't make sense.  Are you suggesting that to repeal the legislation would increase Federal spending?  Reducing the budget deficit increases spending? 

Huh?





AnimusRex -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 7:30:47 PM)

The CBO estimated that the Health Care Reform will save something like 140 Billion over 10 years.

So repealing it will actually increase the debt.

But at least sick people will be kicked off their insurance policies, so there's that benefit.



jlf1961 -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 7:31:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

House Republicans announced Monday that they would vote to repeal health care reform legislation next week. The legislation that they would repeal, according to an estimate by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, would reduce the budget deficit by $143 billion over a decade.


According to the rules laid out by the incoming House Republican majority, the House must pay for all new legislation that increases federal spending - and a repeal bill, of course, is a form of legislation. That would suggest that they must come up with $143 billion to make up for the cost of repealing the health care bill.


The GOP solution? To exempt repeal from that rule.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20027180-503544.html




Firm, please read the bold text. The Health Care bill will SAVE money, not cost money. That should be easy enough to understand.



TheHeretic -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 7:40:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

That would suggest that they must come up with $143 billion to make up for the cost of repealing the health care bill.



It's "hypocrisy," Tazzy, and are you really going to run with this argument, while you have another thread with "spinmeister," in the thread title?




TreasureKY -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 7:42:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

The CBO estimated that the Health Care Reform will save something like 140 Billion over 10 years.

So repealing it will actually increase the debt.


Ahhh... okay.  I understand now.

Sheesh... must be late.  Was like trying to wrap my mind around a double negative.  [&:]

Of course, I don't necessarily believe that.  When has any legislation passed by the government ever lived up to its hype... particularly when looking at the financial impact?  [:-]



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 7:46:43 PM)

The CBO numbers are static, and arent even believed by the CBO. Plus theres that little matter of $500 million under the Doc fix bill that they moved out of health care, even though its really health care.

The hypocrisy is all yours, TG, including the misspelling.

From the CBO:

The reconciliation proposal and H.R. 3590 would maintain and put into
effect a number of policies that might be difficult to sustain over a long
period of time. Under current law, payment rates for physicians’ services in
Medicare would be reduced by about 21 percent in 2010 and then decline
further in subsequent years; the proposal makes no changes to those
provisions. Note this was already violated by the docfix bill to the tune of $500 million.

At the same time, the legislation includes a number of
provisions that would constrain payment rates for other providers of
Medicare services. In particular, increases in payment rates for many
providers would be held below the rate of inflation (in expectation of
ongoing productivity improvements in the delivery of health care). The
projected longer-term savings for the legislation also reflect an assumption
that the Independent Payment Advisory Board established by H.R. 3590
would be fairly effective in reducing costs beyond the reductions that
would be achieved by other aspects of the legislation.8
Under the legislation, CBO expects that Medicare spending would increase
significantly more slowly during the next two decades than it has increased
during the past two decades (per beneficiary, after adjusting for inflation). It
is unclear whether such a reduction in the growth rate of spending could be
achieved, and if so, whether it would be accomplished through greater
efficiencies in the delivery of health care or through reductions in access to
care or the quality of care.



MrRodgers -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 7:54:24 PM)


Come on kinkroids you are all smarter then this. Read the OP...

quote:

The legislation that they would repeal, according to an estimate by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, would reduce the budget deficit by $143 billion over a decade.


With a repub r e p e a l of this part of ObamaCare that would r e d u c e the deficit, requires them by their own new rules...to pay (make up for that spending/reduction) they wish to repeal. This repeal they want is an increase in spending on existing healthcare. So what to do ?

Presto...we repub hypocrites exempt ourselves from any fiscal requirements upon any changes Obamacare.

T Partiers...happy now ?



MrRodgers -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 8:07:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The CBO numbers are static, and arent even believed by the CBO. Plus theres that little matter of $500 million under the Doc fix bill that they moved out of health care, even though its really health care.

The hypocrisy is all yours, TG


This CBO (messenger) shit again ? Funny how the CBO does just fine when telling us of our horrendous 'other' spending from Obama and the dems. On the contrary, if the repubs are not in the media and online publically excoriated for this, then we are truly doomed to demagogues and liars.

Ooh but now, oh yes now...sure, the CBO is made up of hard working, dedicated Americans but they are wrong and for all kinds of reasons...this time.



TheHeretic -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 8:09:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
The Health Care bill will SAVE money, not cost money. That should be easy enough to understand.



Wanna know something scary, Jlf? I have more faith in the projections of the global warming cult than I do in government estimates of what something will cost.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 8:11:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The CBO numbers are static, and arent even believed by the CBO. Plus theres that little matter of $500 million under the Doc fix bill that they moved out of health care, even though its really health care.

The hypocrisy is all yours, TG


This CBO (messenger) shit again ? Funny how the CBO does just fine when telling us of our horrendous 'other' spending from Obama and the dems. On the contrary, if the repubs are not in the media and online publically excoriated for this, then we are truly doomed to demagogues and liars.

Ooh but now, oh yes now...sure, the CBO is made up of hard working, dedicated Americans but they are wrong and for all kinds of reasons...this time.




Youre talking to the wrong person. I have never supported CBO cost estimates for anything. They are static and based on assumptions dictated by the requestor of the estimate.

The real cost of Obamacare is in exess of $500 billion if nothing is changed.



Aylee -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 8:16:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

House Republicans announced Monday that they would vote to repeal health care reform legislation next week. The legislation that they would repeal, according to an estimate by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, would reduce the budget deficit by $143 billion over a decade.


According to the rules laid out by the incoming House Republican majority, the House must pay for all new legislation that increases federal spending - and a repeal bill, of course, is a form of legislation. That would suggest that they must come up with $143 billion to make up for the cost of repealing the health care bill.


The GOP solution? To exempt repeal from that rule.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20027180-503544.html




Firm, please read the bold text. The Health Care bill will SAVE money, not cost money. That should be easy enough to understand.


Actually, no.  I have never understood how the Health Care Bill would save money.  The numbers have never added up when I have done the math. 



FirmhandKY -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 8:17:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The CBO numbers are static, and arent even believed by the CBO. Plus theres that little matter of $500 million under the Doc fix bill that they moved out of health care, even though its really health care.

The hypocrisy is all yours, TG


This CBO (messenger) shit again ? Funny how the CBO does just fine when telling us of our horrendous 'other' spending from Obama and the dems. On the contrary, if the repubs are not in the media and online publically excoriated for this, then we are truly doomed to demagogues and liars.

Ooh but now, oh yes now...sure, the CBO is made up of hard working, dedicated Americans but they are wrong and for all kinds of reasons...this time.

Ok, here's what the CBO is saying:

Congressional Budget Office
Presentation to the Institute of Medicine
Health Costs and the
Federal Budget
May 26, 2010
Douglas W. Elmendorf
Director
Extracts:

Rising health costs will put tremendous pressure on the federal budget during the next few decades and beyond. In CBO’s judgment, the health legislation enacted earlier this year does not substantially diminish that pressure.
...

Conclusion

Putting the federal budget on a sustainable path would almost certainly require a significant reduction in the growth of federal health spending relative to current law (including this year’s health legislation).

From another source that discusses these very two issues:

"What causes this tremendous pressure on the federal budget?

An aging population (especially rising baby boomer's) and the failure of Obamacrap to control health care costs.

Dealing with the first problem is theoretically easy, but politically difficult: raising the retirement age and/or means-testing Medicare benefits.

In other words, move the goal posts by making seniors wait beyond age 65 before they can access Medicare.

The other is to deny successful seniors access to something they have paid for all their lives.

Yeah, that will go over real well.

The second problem, that of controlling the cost of health care is not as easy. According to CBO Chief Elmendorf, "it is not clear what specific policies would translate the potential for significant cost savings into reality.”"

In other words, they have no idea how to control the cost of health care.

Oh, and here are a couple of more reports on CBO projections:

CBO ups health care cost projections
5/12/10

Congressional Budget Office estimates released Tuesday predict the health care overhaul will likely cost about $115 billion more in discretionary spending over ten years than the original cost projections.

The additional spending — if approved over the years by Congress — would bring the total estimated cost of the overhaul to over $1 trillion.

CBO: Health Care Bill Will Cost $115 Billion More Than Previously Assessed
May 12, 2010 9:08 AM

CBO had originally estimated that the health care reform bill would result in a net reduction in federal deficits of $143 billion from 2010-2019; this revised number would eliminate most of that savings.

Plus, a final cognitive comment: how many government programs are ever within budget, or do not grow 2x or 3x or 10x more than "expected"?

So, let us take stock:

1.  The CBO used (acknowledged) "tricks" to get the figures that the Dem's wanted,
2.  The CBO has since said that there will be (even with the "tricks") no real savings in the first decade, and,
3.  They really don't have a good way to determine or control future health care costs, so all of their estimates are suspect anyway (which they admit).

However, it fits the OP's partisan objectives to paint the Republicans who oppose this mess as somehow heartless, and hypocritical.

uh, huh.

Firm

edited for clarity



tazzygirl -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 8:47:35 PM)

Corrected... hypocrisy... And, yes, i am running with this, Rich. This thread is about the upcoming session of Congress and what they propose. The other is about how the spinmeisters were well paid to make people like you believe what the insurance companies wanted you to believe.



tazzygirl -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 8:51:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

According to the rules laid out by the incoming House Republican majority, the House must pay for all new legislation that increases federal spending - and a repeal bill, of course, is a form of legislation. That would suggest that they must come up with $143 billion to make up for the cost of repealing the health care bill.


The GOP solution? To exempt repeal from that rule.

Are you going to tell me there is no hipocracy in that?

Without doing a lot of research, this really sounds kinda strange .... passing legislation that will not cost money - but will actually cut spending - and having to "make up" for the cut elsewhere ... just sounds, dunno ... kinda dumb.

Firm



Consider this... if it wasnt a possibility that repealing the law would cost money, why have this exemption?



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Hipocracy is in the House... literally (1/4/2011 9:01:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

According to the rules laid out by the incoming House Republican majority, the House must pay for all new legislation that increases federal spending - and a repeal bill, of course, is a form of legislation. That would suggest that they must come up with $143 billion to make up for the cost of repealing the health care bill.


The GOP solution? To exempt repeal from that rule.

Are you going to tell me there is no hipocracy in that?

Without doing a lot of research, this really sounds kinda strange .... passing legislation that will not cost money - but will actually cut spending - and having to "make up" for the cut elsewhere ... just sounds, dunno ... kinda dumb.

Firm



Consider this... if it wasnt a possibility that repealing the law would cost money, why have this exemption?


Youve already been told why above. The CBO numbers are BS.


“No one believes that the job-killing healthcare law will lower costs, because it won’t,” said Michael Steel, spokesman for incoming House Speaker John Boehner. “That’s why we’ve pledged to repeal it, and replace it with common-sense reforms that will actually work.”




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