RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 12:05:23 PM)

Or somebody else has the same name. Who'd have thunk it?



DarkSteven -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 12:06:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

The last access was 13 hours ago, and it also lists her age as 27 (wrong, she is 40)

Someone is manipulating her account.



Also, even though Giffords' youtube channel shows her as a subscriber to Loughner, his profile shows he has no subscribers.  Weird.



pahunkboy -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 12:08:07 PM)

I thought she had 163 subscribers- who ever owns that channel.



TheHeretic -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 12:11:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

The expulsion should have been a red flag to whom??



That is an excellent question, Hlen. I don't know. The family, certainly. The nanny-state gives me the horrors, too.

Six people are dead, a US Representative is among the critically wounded. I'm still in the angry place a little bit.

Have you heard the report that the 9 year old was born on 9/11/01, and featured in a photobook of children born on that day?



Moonhead -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 12:22:47 PM)

If the nanny state gives you the horrors, maybe you should shut up bitching and be glad that nothing was done about this wanker before he started murdering people?
It's an either/or thing for people with world views as simplistic as yours, isn't it?



tweakabelle -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 12:27:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulplace

~FR~

In Australia when they took all the guns away the killings and robberies tripled because the theives knew it was an open door policy to rape and kill.



As an Australian, this is news to me. I haven't noticed any increase in crime in the 15 or so years since stricter gun laws were introduced. All the media reports I see report relatively stable or lower crime stats. Please supply some credible evidence to support this claim. This sounds suspiciously like fictitious propaganda to me.

Incidentally the gun laws here were changed after someone opened fire on people at a tourist site and murdered 35 people. We haven't had a repeat of that either.



Lucylastic -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 12:33:08 PM)

Tweakabelle, while I agree with yours and Peacefuls sentiment regarding the dumbassery of the australia comment, I would like to point out that it was not Peaceful that stated it, but CruelandKindSdst.
I  hate to see the wrong person being blamed for such a dumbass comment



LadyConstanze -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 12:33:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelandKindSdst



The usual idiotic and stupid logic and thinking of a Liberal... take the guns away so that only the killers and the criminals have them. In Australia when they took all the guns away the killings and robberies tripled because the theives knew it was an open door policy to rape and kill. The first thing that hitler did was to take away the guns. The reason Sweden was never invaded by Germany is because it was required that everybody have a gun.


Wow, why bother with history if you can sprout nonsense? Open a history book instead of creating your own version... I know education is high on the right winged agenda, but do you need to make it so freaking obvious?


quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelandKindSdst

If honest people had guns this would never have happened because the shooter would be put down before he could have done anything. Guns protect, bad people kill. Why don't you move to the border towns of Arizona where all the mexicans are killing people and preach no guns no protection... you are nothing more that a IDIOT in the biggest way.



Should you really use the word idiot? Guns protect? Yeah you tell that to the people who were killed by bullets? I guess it will be such a relief to them to know that they only imagine that they were killed by something that "protects"



NowGo -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 12:39:03 PM)

Indict Sarah Palin Petition.

http://www.petitiononline.com/IndictSP/petition.html





Moonhead -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 12:40:03 PM)

If they didn't over her embezzling federal funds to build a new house, I doubt they'll bother now.



Charles6682 -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 12:49:36 PM)

I signed that petition.I doubt it will go anywhere but it will send the message.Sarah Palin was doing a rally back in 2008 in a small town in Flordia.There was a guy in the crowd who shouted "kill Obama".Instead of Palin using this moment to denounce violence,the crowd cheered for about 30 seconds and Palin just stood there,doing nothing.Then she continued her speech like nothing was ever said.She encourages this kind of garbage.She will NEVER be President of this country.She is a lunatic.What happened to Alaska up there?Dam,I guess all those long,cold dark winter days have clearly affected their judgement when Sarah Palin is their "claim to fame".



Lucylastic -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 12:49:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

The expulsion should have been a red flag to whom??



That is an excellent question, Hlen. I don't know. The family, certainly. The nanny-state gives me the horrors, too.

"Dont retreat, Reload" gives me the willies.
Really you didnt see this coming?? from any side? why??

Have you heard the report that the 9 year old was born on 9/11/01, and featured in a photobook of children born on that day?

Yes her name is Christina Taylor Green
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=h#!/pages/In-Memory-of-Christina-Taylor-Green/173802112655003



RapierFugue -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 12:50:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
No he couldn't have done this with a knife... but why does everyone against guns use that?

Because it's true. A knife-wielding maniac is a bad thing, but s/he is a bad thing for maybe 3 people at most, and in a crowd they'll be taken down in seconds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
Don't you all think of the bombs that can be made from many things? He could have done that with a bomb and he wouldn't have had a hard time figuring out how to make one, with legal substances.

(Don't ask me how... hell if I know how to do it, but I've read that it isn't hard to find out.)

If you want a small (so easily hidden) device, and you want it easily triggered (so no fuses or having to light things, but either cap-to-cap or electrical) and you want a medium-to-large scale area effect (so covering, say, the same area a gunman could, with similar deaths or injuries), then it's actually very, very difficult to build and deploy such a device without a) ordering materials that will bring you to the attention of the authorities and b) it going off either prematurely, or mis-firing badly. Lots of Anarchist Cookbook types will quote this or that, but decent sized bangs from small bombs are nightmarishly difficult to do, and unreliable to boot. There's also the factor that this loon doesn't appear to have been suicidal, therefore a bomb wouldn't have been an option.

It would be wonderful if, in the aftermath of this awful event, Americans were to finally wake up, and once and for all accept that gun ownership is at the root of these kind of events. In other countries, like the UK and Australia, they're once or twice in a generation events. In the US, they're regular occurrences.

You have, as a nation, a simple choice; either do something meaningful about gun ownership, rather than tinkering at the edges, or else accept these kind of events as the price of having a gun culture.

The choice, as voters and citizens, is yours. I don't for one second think it'll happen, but the choice does always remain open to you.



RapierFugue -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 1:02:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelandKindSdst
If honest people had guns this would never have happened because the shooter would be put down before he could have done anything.

If you have any friends who know what they're talking about, in (say) armed law enforcement (and I mean SWAT, SS or similar) or military shooter groups (Delta, SO/CO19, etc), ask them what the odds are on pulling a firearm, releasing the safety, chambering a round, then getting a decent shot off, in those kinds of situations - i.e. static start, "friendly" surroundings.

The Secret Service work on a ratio of 5:1 at best. In other words, if you want to defend against a single shooter who knows they are going to fire when you don't, in an everyday situation, where you don't expect trouble, then you need 5 very well trained and sharp individuals to protect every single other person. And even then, the chances are the shooter will kill at least 2 of the "defensive" unit. Oh, and then (if your average citizen is going to walk around shopping malls armed) you have to factor-in "blue on blue" shots; they'll kill 1 in 3 of the defensive team in a crowd, if you're lucky, and many more if you aren’t.

Before calling people "idiots", you might want to do some research and talk to people who have more than a passing interest in these matters. The answers you find won't tally with your Hollywood-inspired ideal, and they will decimate your world-view, as it pertains to guns, but there's some hope that, if enough deluded fools like you do it, that you won't be quite so keen on the general populace being armed at the end of your learning curve as you were at the start. As it stands you’re actually by far the worst kind of idiot.



Lockit -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 1:03:14 PM)

Nope.. there is just no way a bomb can do as much damage, is there? Read it and weep. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12101748

If there isn't a gun or another way to harm people, they will find a way.

This thread is not about gun ownership and while it can fit into the thread, I see no reason to make this about a gun debate that takes over the thread. A bomb in a cafe from a back pack or carried on a back, kills people often. A car bomb or a plane... if there is a will, there is a way. Whether guns are allowed or not, if someone wants to be a mass murderer, they just need a car or to make a bomb, use poison or whatever.



RapierFugue -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 1:10:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Nope.. there is just no way a bomb can do as much damage, is there? Read it and weep. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12101748

1. That's a car bomb. See many cars driving through shopping malls do you? ETA: The bomb was brought by car because it was too bulky to be "walked" in - it went off on a person, but they'd have stood out like a sore thumb in a shopping mall.
2. The materials to make it aren't tracked in countries like Egypt.
3. Your killer isn't a suicide type. He wouldn't have done it if he'd thought he was going to die, whatever he said about being ready for this and that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
This thread is not about gun ownership

This thread is about the tragedy of one person killing and maiming many people, how they were able to do it, and what a sensible person can do to avoid the same thing happening again.

When you're a moderator you can dictate what does and doesn't constitute a thread's content. Until then, I'll speak my peace, thanks all the same.



Lockit -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 1:17:40 PM)

Oh god lord, all I was saying was that I wasn't going to take part in a thread take over. I'm sorry I didn't spell that out. Really... I am honestly saying that. There was a man upset, drove his car into a crowd waiting at a bus stop, killed a number of people and injured many. I have read stories about this kind of thing often. You want to derail a train? Not real hard to do. Park a car. I've seen a train derailment and all it took was a bit of bad track and there went the train. (My ex was a railroad man and they had to monitor illegal persons jumping on the train, just think... one could have something on their back or hell leave it on the track, that might do it.)

This is my final post on this aspect of the topic. You can continue if you want, I sure wasn't trying to play mod. My words may read as angry, but they are not. Fact is fact to me, I speak directly and I am just speaking my mind just as you are. I believe if someone wants to do something, most can find a way to do it.



Charles6682 -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 1:28:14 PM)

The Tea Party of America.Is now the new American Taliban!!



RapierFugue -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 1:31:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Oh god lord, all I was saying was that I wasn't going to take part in a thread take over. I'm sorry I didn't spell that out. Really... I am honestly saying that.

You refuted my statements with inaccuracies. If someone does that, I’ll reserve the right to correct them. But none of what followed your statement had anything to do with the topic. This person didn't want to kill some random people by derailing a train, as awful an act as that was; he came with a target, and if you've got a target you have to have a targeted weapon.

This event happened, on this scale, for one reason, and one reason only; people can blame Palin for whipping up this and that (and I agree she was a contributory factor), and talk about other factors, some of which are, I'm sure, relevant, but the core reason why this happens every 2-5 years in the US, regular as clockwork (and yet for some strange reason there's never a number of highly competent, armed civilians around when you need them, despite what the pro-gun lobby say), and quietly (in terms of not having huge body counts in one incident) tens of thousands of your own citizens every year, and yet doesn't in the UK (private gunfire killings of scale 2 incidents in 35 years, both of which saw changes in the law on ownership as a result), is the gun laws, and specifically the handgun laws, of the US. Until the US accepts that as the fact it is, and deals with it, this scene will repeat itself over and over. There is no reason why an ordinary citizen (not a farmer on pest control, for example) needs, or should be allowed to have, a gun, most especially a handgun.

Now: are US citizens now going to just talk about it all, and wring their hands, and say how awful it is, or are they going to do something?



RapierFugue -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/9/2011 1:32:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

The Tea Party of America.Is now the new American Taliban!!

Actually, all of you are responsible. Left, right, Dem., Rep. - all.

So what are you going to do?



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