RE: The South shall rise again??? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/14/2011 10:50:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Well. Fuck me. Turns out Termy and tazzy were right. How annoying. (lol). Apparently slavery was dying out, and most slaves were relatively well treated by the time the Civil war came around, although in the 17th and 18th centuries things were pretty horrendous. Sorry guys. i'll keep my mouth shut next time i don't know what i'm talking about.

pam


I wasnt asking to be bitchy. Nor did i mean for it to come across as such. I really wanted to simply get you to look.

The cost of a slave, if the amount back then was 950 dollars, would be in real money today around 30000 to 40000. Thats a huge investment. Imagine a plantation with 30 slaves. We arent talking nickles and dimes here.

The return on that investment was only between 10 and 18%, per year, depending on the year.

http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his311/notes/plantati.htm

As far as medical care, the best example i can give you is the following site...

http://www.history.vt.edu/Jones/priv_hist3724/SlaveMed/sickblack.html

I, in no way, want to attamept to make slavery look better than what it truly was. But, its already been made to look much worse than it actually was.




gungadin09 -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 7:58:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I wasnt asking to be bitchy. Nor did i mean for it to come across as such. I really wanted to simply get you to look.


Oh, i know. i wasn't trying to imply that you were.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
The cost of a slave, if the amount back then was 950 dollars, would be in real money today around 30000 to 40000. Thats a huge investment. Imagine a plantation with 30 slaves. We arent talking nickles and dimes here.


i found that too, $30,000 to purchase a slave. Their life expectancy was 20 years. They worked 12 hours a day, 5 days a week, so 60 hours a week. Their food, housing and medical varied from region to region and plantation to plantation, and i didn't find any hard numbers. i got the idea that accomodations were pretty minimal, although still livable, and arguably better than what many of them would have experienced in Africa- ESPECIALLY NEAR THE TIME OF THE CIVIL WAR. In previous generations (1600s, 1700s), the conditions were simply horrendous, and slave owners simply worked their slaves to death because it was cheaper (at that time) to buy new ones than to maintain adequate living conditions for the ones that they had.

That had changed by the time of the Civil War. The prices of slaves had gone up (doubled), and the intense nature of the agriculture had gone down (farms changed from producing bumper crop monocultures of tobacco, etc. to more sustainable crops once their fields began losing fertility). As a result, there was less work for the slaves to do, and being more valuble, the landowners had to treat them better to protect their investment. This was the beginning of the end of slavery, and if it hadn't been for the cotton boom in the deep South. In the years preceding the war, most high south states were making the money by shipping slaves off to work in factories for wages.

i was unable to find whether most slaves food, housing, and medical treatments were considerably worse then their poor white counterparts at the time of the Civil War. They had housing, but virtually no possessions. They had food, but it was the cheapest possible materials, and, probably, not enough. In particular, the field workers weren't given an adequate number of calories. Slaves had access to medical treatment through the plantations, but they made it a point to avoid the doctors and instead relied on other slaves to care for them and applied their own herbal remedies for medicine. i suspect that some of the poor white farmworkers were living in similar conditions, or only marginally better, in terms of economics.

Apparently, the rich plantation owners were a small minority of the Southern population. Most Southerners did not own slaves, and most who did owned only one or two. There was a kind of oligarchy with the poor whites and slaves making up the majority, and yet having no social mobility or real power. The real tragedy is that the South did not educate their population (outside of the oligarchy), did not develop their own infrastructure (preferring to trade with Europe for comodities instead of engaging in trade locally, which would have made for a much healthier and more balanced economy), and because of racism used slaves only in agriculture instead of factories and such. Those mistakes came back to haunt them in the Civil War.

i didn't find any evidence about whether it would have been cheaper for the slaveowners to pay slaves wages, as free agents, than to purchase them as slaves and provide their food, housing, and medical. i suspect there was no such thing as minimum wage in the rural South. In my opinion, the most well treated of the slaves, and the worst off of the poor white farmworkers were probably living in similar conditions. It may be that for much of the Southern population, the terms "slavery" and "freedom" referred more to a state of mind, and a degree of status and respect within the community (or lack thereof), rather than any real economic or political "freedom".

i haven't provided a bibliography. Sorry, i'm too lazy. But anyone who is curious about this stuff is welcome to look it up for themselves.

pam




Edwynn -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 9:17:19 AM)



Well done pam.

And no, you don't need to provide "links" for those too stupid to know what a library is or too lazy to visit one. Those who have read history outside of a search engine or standard classroom will recognize much of what you have conveyed to us.


The 12 hour days and 60 hour weeks and minimal medical attention for slaves were actually a slight step above what white children got in the Northern regions in the 1880's through the early 1900's. But the kids were paid some minimal amount, and it was standard and well accepted practice in that region, which is why the Northern  publishers have nothing to say about it in any history text books since, preferring to deflect attention elsewhere.





tazzygirl -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 10:34:00 AM)

Everyone keeps talking about this... minimal medical attention.... exactly how much medical attention does anyone believe was available for anyone in the 1800's? They wwere still practicing blood letting then,




Edwynn -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 10:57:20 AM)



It's not my intention to further the already deep ignorance in the matter, but we have to address things one at a time, you know.

My use of the phrase "minimal medical attention" was for purpose of keeping within a recognizable paradigm for the general audience, in pursuit of making a point elsewhere.


We are dealing with people who actually have it in their heads that slavery was invented in the South. I was just trying to keep it simple for them and not present too much shock all at once.





kalikshama -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 12:11:13 PM)

This discussion brings to mind several great books I read last year. One was about an white indentured servant @ Boston who was raped and impregnated by her master and later charged with infanticide after the baby was born dead and the crime of fornication. Can anyone help me with the title?

The other book was "The Help."

http://www.amazon.com/Help-Kathryn-Stockett/dp/0399155341

...set during the nascent civil rights movement in Jackson, Miss., where black women were trusted to raise white children but not to polish the household silver. Eugenia Skeeter Phelan is just home from college in 1962, and, anxious to become a writer, is advised to hone her chops by writing about what disturbs you. The budding social activist begins to collect the stories of the black women on whom the country club sets relies and mistrusts enlisting the help of Aibileen, a maid who's raised 17 children, and Aibileen's best friend Minny, who's found herself unemployed more than a few times after mouthing off to her white employers. The book Skeeter puts together based on their stories is scathing and shocking, bringing pride and hope to the black community, while giving Skeeter the courage to break down her personal boundaries and pursue her dreams. Assured and layered, full of heart and history, this one has bestseller written all over it. (Feb.)




Charles6682 -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 12:23:48 PM)

The White Northerns main reason for fighting in the Civil War was to preserve the Union.Still,Freddick Douglass wanted the North to win in order to end slavery.Blacks were fighting in the Union Forces when it become legal,to help end slavery.Freddick Douglass was actually a Republican.He was a helpful in helping Abraham Lincoln,to finally consider ending slavery,another Republican.This was at a time when the Republicans actually stood for something good.Freddick Douglass lived in my hometown of Rochester,New York,when he was writing the "Northern Star",a newspaerwhich encouraged the end of slavery.Rochester was also a major player in the Underground railroad movement.Many Blacks fled the South to get away from the horrible treatment of Blacks in the South.When the "Fugitive Slave act" was passed,Rochesterians helped hide runaway slaves in "secret"rooms and helped them get to Canada.

I remember meeting a few Blacks in upstate NY who were to get out of the "Deep South".Clearly they werent in a rush to go back,even after the Civil Rights act passed.They had kids and there kids grew up there.Many of them chose to stay North.I can't say I blame them.




Edwynn -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 12:55:03 PM)


Why don't you give us some specifics, some examples, Charles, to explain to us why you can't blame them.

Not from your bizarre and mental ward perception of things, but real life encounters.


Thanks.






rulemylife -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 1:08:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

philo, I'll disagree with you a TINY bit about left wing racists. I have literally heard some of them basically say " I can't be racist because I'm not a white, anglo-Saxon protestant southern male"

I think that is wrong too.

Racism is wrong no matter what color or gender or ethnicity or religion you are.

Some folks just don't get that.


Most people didn't get that, until we elected a black President and a bunch of fat, old white guys educated us on the evils of reverse discrimination.

Thank God for Rush spreading the voice of freedom to the downtrodden.




Charles6682 -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 1:13:48 PM)

Why in the hell would a rational Black person want to live in an area like how the South was with such horrible conditions?Granted,the North wasnt perfect but was a hell of a lot better than the South.




Charles6682 -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 1:15:48 PM)

Dont think I am defending the North from its racism because I am not.Slavery was perfectly legal at a time in the North too.However,the North learned a hell of alot quicker than the South ever did.In fact,it took a friggin war to end slavery in the South.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 1:16:03 PM)

Like the south ever fell........

;o)

As for this thread, nine pages and I'll be damned if I can figure out wtf it is about. 




Charles6682 -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 1:20:43 PM)

I will rephrase that.It does not matter now anymore anyways.We are all Americans and that is what is important.




Charles6682 -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 1:21:59 PM)

Read this."The Life of Frederick Douglass,an American Slave".Written by Frederick Douglass in his own words.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 1:22:15 PM)

Well, if it falls, Florida will be the first to disappear, so HANG ON!!!!!!!!!!!




Termyn8or -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 1:37:14 PM)

FR

The south did fall. Just ask the old timers in Savannah. But is that the point ?

Referring to the title here (I know that's out of the ordinary on CM), there will be no secession. States have even less chance of seceeding from the union than the old Soviet states during the reign of the Soviet Union. Think about it, anything like this will involve military force. That would mean a group of states would have to develop their own forces independently and secretly. This when they are about to go begging the feds for money ? My ass. It's just not going to happen.

Do I think it would be a good thing if it did ? I think it is possible, in fact as a ploy to cancel the national debt, it could work like a charm. Think of it, the US government would be put down, so the debt would be gone. After a time a new federal govwernment could be installed, and we could scam the world. The problem is there's no faking it, and actually then other countries might "help" us to preserve the union. I bet our creditors would be the first in line to do so.

Y'all want to talk racism go ahead, you want to call me a racist fine. But don't call me a bigot.

But when you talk slavery, most people equate that to a Black/White issue. Now let me put forth a question. I don't feel like looking it up because I don't think the answers would be forthcoming : If there were indentured servants of any race in this country at the time of the Emancipation Proclaimation, would the be released from their contracts ?

I ask here because, just fathom the keywords I would have to use to google it ! How would you put that in ? Work for no pay is technically slavery unless it s voluntary. Does the ability to contract in the Constitution allow for such forfeiture of "inalienable" rights ?

You know, when you go into certain Chinese restaurants some of those employees are under such a contract. Some work 14 hours a day for shit. They are provided housing and basic sustainence for a number of years. The wages are below minumum in some cases, due to some exemptions. Is that slavery ? Those people are paying with their sweat to be here. But are those contracts, obviously generated in another country enforcable here ? And how ?

Sorry to hijack your thread about all the things Pam listed to bring up a point relating to the OP, but I'm just a psycho that way.

T





Hillwilliam -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 2:06:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

philo, I'll disagree with you a TINY bit about left wing racists. I have literally heard some of them basically say " I can't be racist because I'm not a white, anglo-Saxon protestant southern male"

I think that is wrong too.

Racism is wrong no matter what color or gender or ethnicity or religion you are.

Some folks just don't get that.


Most people didn't get that, until we elected a black President and a bunch of fat, old white guys educated us on the evils of reverse discrimination.

Thank God for Rush spreading the voice of freedom to the downtrodden.


Sorry, rule, I thought discrimination (not reverse discrimination because there IS NO SUCH THING) It's ALL discrimination no matter who it is against was wrong 30-40 years ago.

Isn't that what Dr. King's "I have a dream" speech was all about? He dreamt that some day "a man would be judged by the content of his heart and not the color of his skin."




rulemylife -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 2:35:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Sorry, rule, I thought discrimination (not reverse discrimination because there IS NO SUCH THING) It's ALL discrimination no matter who it is against was wrong 30-40 years ago.

Isn't that what Dr. King's "I have a dream" speech was all about? He dreamt that some day "a man would be judged by the content of his heart and not the color of his skin."


Discrimination affects those who do not have power in society.

So I find it odd that those who do are suddenly playing the victim.




gungadin09 -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 2:55:12 PM)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's not possible for THIS THREAD to be "hijacked". It sucks in every possible topic towards itself. That is its nature. Ten, twenty, thirty, forty interpretations of the OP. They keep coming. And the THREAD devours them. In the end, nothing will escape, not even light.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

pam




Termyn8or -> RE: The South shall rise again??? (1/15/2011 2:56:29 PM)

Sorry I didn't read the last parts of the thread befor my last post, I was in a hurry for one, and in a way I thought the thread would die. But as it turns out, there is still some real conversation going on. Great !

But being CM, and me being a wierdo, say I wanted a slave. Contract considerations on both sides, for a term, not life like a marriage. We still have indentured servants, and even if those contracts are unenforcable in US law, what keeps them there at that Chines restaurant ? It's either loyalty or dependence wouldn't you say ?

Don't bother responding if you don't feel like it. But I think it's an interesting question. In fact, indentured servants from England or "White" Europe for example, how could those contracts be enforced after the USA was established in the absence of a treaty ?

Hmmmmm, as far out as he gets, believe it or not RealOne would probably have the answer to that.

T




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