Amid all the hysteria...

Amid all the hysteria... (Full Version)

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DarkSteven -> Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 6:13:47 PM)
The Giffords shooting has caused a lot of soul searching, and a lot of hysteria. My take: 1. I would seriously welcome less anger, less violent imagery, and less rancor in our national speech. That said, I expect to see a new age of civility dawn, and last a few weeks. 2. Loughner was not driven to violence by the antagonistic tenor of speech. If he was, it was random, and he could just as easily have been set off by reading the ingredients of Froot Loops. He's crazy as a loon, and there is NO WAY to change the national environment so that nuts like him don't get provoked. 3. One of the few valid concerns about how to stop him - how do we deal with the mentally ill? He exhibited classic symptoms and nothing was done. Reports were made, he was kicked out of school, he lost jobs and friends... all the symptoms, Nothing happened. 4. The other valid concern - should there have been some way he was prevented from buying a gun? The system as it is in place currently let him buy a gun and a clip with 30 shots in it. While I don't like the idea of gun control, if there was some clear designation he could have as a mentally unstable man, he should not have had the ability to buy a gun. He probably would have stolen one from someone, but no point making it easy for him. 5. Not many seem to understand the "blood libel" term and its visceral connotation to Jews. I still hold that Palin used it without any idea what she was saying. It's analogous to me speaking to a group and casually mentioning lynching while I did so, with no reason to do so. It would freak out all the blacks and make them wonder why I would do that. 6. Palin screwed up. Using the term was just weird, but simply brushing it aside by saying she didn't understand the connotations it had and won't do it again, would have made it blow over. Her reaction likely won't cost her any support from her base, but it sure won't endear the GOP to Jews. Also, her taking down the gunsight graphic while claiming it was innocuous and a bunch of surveyor symbols, is pathetic. Had she stood her ground and said that she likes emphatic images and they had no effect on Loughner, she could have made a better impression. She's trying to claim that the images had no effect while backpedaling furiously from them. It's making her look like a weenie - exactly the opposite of the image she wants - just when Obama got to deliver a speech and look Presidential. 7. Maybe I'm out of line here, but I'm pissed off that the Congresspeople and Senators are starting to introduce legislation aimed at protecting themselves from attacks like this. What about the rest of us who also have to worry about random violence? If they want to introduce legislation to make themselves safer, I want it to apply to me as well.

pahunkboy -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 6:21:56 PM)
Bravo! Well said.

pahunkboy -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 6:32:03 PM)
Steven, try not to watch that stuff. TV will ruin your brain.

Rule -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 6:50:58 PM)
Either Loughner was a nut, or - going with one of the conspiracy hypotheses - he was a programmed assassin. In the first case nothing could have and can be done, in the second case at least the agency responsible for protecting the judge and Congresswoman, ought to have their top men fired and their budget cut and one ought to ensure that the assassination of the judge does not achieve its intended political aim. In any case this event is of scarcely any significance. During the same time in the same state undoubtedly thousands of people ended up in hospitals from various conditions, were fired, had their house taken away, or died from various cases such as heart attacks, traffic accidents or swallowing food in the wrong way. As for the concept of the 'blood libel', I gather that this refers to Jews slaughtering and eating Christian children? Well, in a magical sense that is true: Jesus is referred to as the lamb of God. Jews slaughter and eat lambs, do they not? So in a magical sense they slaughter and eat Jesus / Christian children. (What can I say? People used to be dumb animals - and doubtlessly some or many still are; though I hope that our species is evolving beyond that. So I hope that the 'blood libel' thingy is a thing of the past. I have no evidence that during the past two thousand years Jews ever ate any human being. In any case it usually appears to have served as a pretext for violence against Jewish populations, and even without that specific pretext I am sure that another would have been supplied - like for example 911 as a pretext to invade two Muslim countries.) DS, usually you keep your cool, but this time you appear disturbed. Take a hold of yourself, man. You are an engineer. Isn't the chance that some nut or a programed killer shoots you near infinitesimal low? If you want it to be still lower, then insist that the top of the FBI is fired and that their budget is cut; that will encourage the FBI to make sure it does not happen again.

DarkSteven -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 7:03:27 PM)
Jews don't eat lambs any more than the general population, and even if we did, your idea that it is related to eating Christian children is far-fetched. The blood libel specifically is that Jews would kill Christian children, literally and not metaphorically, for our rituals. I'm not saying that for 2000 years, Jews have never committed cannibalism. That's a given - an observant Jew is prevented from killing, let alone eating, another. I'm saying that the blood libel is a lie which has been used as a reason to hate Jews.

pahunkboy -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 7:05:19 PM)
I had never heard the term until this week. I had no idea what it meant.

Rule -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 7:09:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy I had never heard the term until this week. That is not so strange. You are from the USA, whereas the concept used to be popular in Europe, mostly in Germany and Poland and mostly during the fourteenth century or thereabouts, if I recall correctly.

Lucylastic -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 7:10:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven Jews don't eat lambs any more than the general population, and even if we did, your idea that it is related to eating Christian children is far-fetched. The blood libel specifically is that Jews would kill Christian children, literally and not metaphorically, for our rituals. I'm not saying that for 2000 years, Jews have never committed cannibalism. That's a given - an observant Jew is prevented from killing, let alone eating, another. I'm saying that the blood libel is a lie which has been used as a reason to hate Jews. Steven, Im with you in that I have many similar hopes. But amid what is happening on the board, I say no more, hugs you.

pahunkboy -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 7:18:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy I had never heard the term until this week. That is not so strange. You are from the USA, whereas the concept used to be popular in Europe, mostly in Germany and Poland and mostly during the fourteenth century or thereabouts, if I recall correctly. I had to Google it. I don't really follow Palin, or mainstream TV. So- I miss alot of the nut show. Most of it is nothing but a distraction.

eihwaz -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 7:28:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven 1. I would seriously welcome less anger, less violent imagery, and less rancor in our national speech. Agreed. quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven 2. Loughner was not driven to violence by the antagonistic tenor of speech. Has the FBI made enough progress in their investigation to establish this? quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven 3. One of the few valid concerns about how to stop him - how do we deal with the mentally ill? He exhibited classic symptoms and nothing was done.... What could have been done? The standard for intervention -- i.e., confinement to a psychiatric institution -- by civil authorities in most places is that the person must present a danger to others or him/herself. Also, I believe there are jurisdictional lacunae in many places. quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven 4. The other valid concern - should there have been some way he was prevented from buying a gun? ... if there was some clear designation he could have as a mentally unstable man, he should not have had the ability to buy a gun. He probably would have stolen one from someone, but no point making it easy for him. Agreed. There are privacy and fairness issues with "designating" someone mentally ill, though. quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven 5. Not many seem to understand the "blood libel" term and its visceral connotation to Jews. I still hold that Palin used it without any idea what she was saying. Agreed, but a politician of her national visibility should know better. Or at least consult advisors who know better. quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven 6. Palin screwed up. Agreed. The interesting thing is that this time she got tripped up in her usual tactic of claiming victimhood. quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven 7. ... I'm pissed off that the Congresspeople and Senators are starting to introduce legislation aimed at protecting themselves from attacks like this. Ditto. They're being remarkably tone deaf, so soon after the tragedy in Arizona -- and this will not improve the esteem in which we (US) citizens hold our national legislators.

Musicmystery -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 7:30:20 PM)
quote: I still hold that Palin used it without any idea what she was saying. While this is probably true, I don't find it much better. She might try sticking to words she understands.

Rule -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 7:36:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven Jews don't eat lambs any more than the general population I have no information about that. These days in The Netherlands people eat lamb meat. Likely they have done so for thousands of years. I dunno about other parts of Europe. quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven your idea that it is related to eating Christian children is far-fetched. That probably is because you are an engineer. By definition engineers cannot think outside of the box. Nothing wrong with that, as long as one understands that people who cannot think out of the box are limited (to their box) in their perceptions of truth. quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven The blood libel specifically is that Jews would kill Christian children, literally and not metaphorically, for our rituals. And indeed, dumb animals who cannot perceive the metaphor for what it is will sometimes or often accept the libel as truth and act upon it. Simply scared animals, DS. The cause of genocide on the Jews was never that pretext, DS. There must have been plenty of other pretexts. In fact, I am fairly sure that one such was that Jews poison wells. There always was only one common factor in genocides on the Jews, DS. That one common factor are the Jews themselves. Think about it. Do not always say "The other guy did it. I am blameless". quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven I'm not saying that for 2000 years, Jews have never committed cannibalism. That's a given - an observant Jew is prevented from killing, let alone eating, another. Oh, come on! That is a preposterous 'We are holier than thou' attitude! That is like a Muslim saying: "I did not kill him, for I am a Muslim and my religion prohibits me from killing anyone", while holding the knife dripping with blood in his hands. (I recall such a case from France where a Muslim murdered a Dutch couple.) Show me any population on Earth with a thousand year history that is without any serial killers and cannibals in its history - and I will show you a pink elephant with green polka dots and two trunks. quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven I'm saying that the blood libel is a lie which has been used as a reason to hate Jews. Sure it was a lie. But if not for that pretext, another would have been supplied. DS, I think that you are a nice man. Frankly, I have no idea why anyone would hate a nice person. Do you? If you have no idea either, I must - logically - conclude that the only reason to perhaps hate someone is because they are not nice.

Musicmystery -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 7:40:11 PM)
quote: By definition engineers cannot think outside of the box. Probably why engineers don't invent or design things. Oh...um....wait a minute....that doesn't sound quite right...... And neither do you.

Rule -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 7:43:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eihwaz Ditto. They're being remarkably tone deaf, so soon after the tragedy in Arizona -- and this will not improve the esteem in which we (US) citizens hold our national legislators. So write them a letter.

Rule -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 7:45:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: By definition engineers cannot think outside of the box. Probably why engineers don't invent or design things. You are wrong. Engineers do invent and design things. But they mostly do so inside the box, using familiar, established principles of engineering. Edited to add 'mostly'.

Musicmystery -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 7:51:39 PM)
Yeah. Like thinking of new and better ways to do things.

hlen5 -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 7:59:04 PM)
How can Palin herself even be so deluded that she thinks she has a chance to win public office after quitting midterm as governor? I agree she most likely didn't know the meaning of the word. While I had heard the myth, I hadn't heard the term "blood libel".

Rule -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 7:59:12 PM)
I do think that DS is most qualified to provide some examples of engineers thinking outside of the box. Offhand I cannot think of any.

Rule -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 8:07:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 How can Palin herself even be so deluded that she thinks she has a chance to win public office after quitting midterm as governor? I have no idea. It is my impression that all politicians are crazy and/or liars. quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 I agree she most likely didn't know the meaning of the word. While I had heard the myth, I hadn't heard the term "blood libel". Though I do not know in what context it was used, I do not consider it relevant. These are the decades of the genocide on the Muslims. All other populations do not have to worry at the moment. The next target probably is Iran and after that perchance Indonesia or one of the North African countries (not Egypt).

philosophy -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 8:32:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven 3. One of the few valid concerns about how to stop him - how do we deal with the mentally ill? He exhibited classic symptoms and nothing was done. Reports were made, he was kicked out of school, he lost jobs and friends... all the symptoms, Nothing happened. ...the problem here is one of sovereignity. Someone with symptoms of, say, paranoia, will actively resist interventions. Their family may be unwilling or ill-equipped to recognise the danger their relative is in, or what danger they may pose to others. Schools, in the USA, when ranged against the power and precedence ofthe individual and their family have absolutely no way to gainsay either. The police may not be involved, they are not trained mental health workers, the individual may not have broken any law. Health services? To even suggest they have a primary role here is to assume they have the ability to monitor the general population. The first, and only really prophylatic, line of defence in mental health is the family. So, the need here is for education. A family that doesn't know what to watch for and what to do has no chance when a loved one begins to succumb......and, at the point where others statutary agencies get involved, it's almost always too late.

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