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A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 2:09:54 PM

rednicky

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I'm sure most D/s couples have gone through this. A sub is punished for something she doesn't think is wrong. But the Dom does. Obviously she's upset (but of course she takes her punishment like a champion). My question regards what happens afterwards. After the punishment, the dom is ready to hug and kiss the tears away but the last thing the sub wants is to cuddle with the one who caused her pain in the first place. At least, that's how I felt when it happened. But according to him, my attitude is way off base. I don't necessarily disagree. Time and time again I read stories (written by subs) of harsh punishments that ended in loving kisses and hugs. But I can't help but wonder, why? Wouldn't you be pissed? I know I was pissed.

What makes subs perfectly fine with embracing her punisher right after a punishment (especially one she felt she didn't deserve)? Why is she not upset at the punisher? I'd think everyone would be upset at their punisher. Why am I alone on this? What goes through the subs' and Doms' minds?

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 2:17:52 PM

LillyBoPeep

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this is why a lot of people simply don't do punishment dynamics. they don't work for every personality type, and sometimes the person doing the punishing IS wrong.
in my last relationship, i was only punished two times that i can remember, out of the entire time we were together. in those instances, he explained exactly why it happened, and exactly what needed to be done to keep it from happening again. afterward, he didn't insist that i should hug him and kiss him and thank him for his oh-so-wonderful Dominance, because he understood that i might not want to. =p later i did, and we had a discussion about the issue to clarify it.

sometimes when people say "punishment," they don't really mean "you did X wrong, you will now be punished." sometimes it's just S&M activity, "funishment," or something cathartic. and still for others, they like the feeling of being totally subjugated, and corporal punishment makes them feel that way.

for some people, punishments work by helping them absolve themselves of negative feelings. but honestly, punishing isn't always the most effective way to alter behavior. finding whatever the root cause is, and dealing with THAT, is usually more productive. is he not willing to talk to you about your concerns? you still feel like you did nothing wrong, and if that lingers, it could breed some pretty serious resentment that could eat away at the relationship. is there a way you could explain your point of view to him, maybe through some experience of his own, so that he could sort of understand?

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 2:18:46 PM

AquaticSub

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If I deserved it, than why would I be pissed? I'm not a child who can't see my mistakes and punishments don't happen without an explanation so I'm never wondering what I'm being punished for. I have no problem cuddling after a punishment that I deserved. Indeed, I find it soothing - it's like make-up sex after a fight.

One that I don't (in my opinion) deserve... Yeah that is where I get annoyed. Its happened once or twice and I was upset before, during and afterwards. That I wasn't believed/listened to or whatever the issue was. And no I didnt want to cuddle afterwards. I was grumbly and pissed and just wanted to be alone to cool off.

Which Val allowed without an issue. I don't really see why he wouldn't have. For us, having to order me to cuddle defeats the point of cuddling. If I'm not in the mood, I'm not in the mood. It's not like sex where we can achieve the end result regardless of my mood.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/16/2011 2:20:22 PM >

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 2:22:04 PM

DarkSteven

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There's a problem.

If the Dom feels like the sub was wrong and she doesn't, a punishment will not clean the slate, which is what a punishment should do.

I honestly don't know the answer. I was once in this situation, where a sub did something wrong and she felt I had an obligation to find out the underlying reason. I didn't because I felt that the infraction was so great that no underlying cause could justify it. I spanked her and told her that her actions had frayed our relationship and never to do it again. I found out that she had complained to two people that I had not addressed the issue the way she thought it should have been addressed, and I ended the relationship.

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 2:28:35 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

What makes subs perfectly fine with embracing her punisher right after a punishment (especially one she felt she didn't deserve)? Why is she not upset at the punisher?

Because this is a power echange/authority transfer dynamic and therefore she has consented that the energy she felt she did/did not deserve be expressed as control/authority/power.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky
I'd think everyone would be upset at their punisher. Why am I alone on this?

Not every would be upset about this. But some would. Those who would be upset have not consented to exchange of energy but allow what is known as a power over. Thus punishment leads to further disatisfaction, and disatisfaction leads to more punishment ad infinitum

quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky
What goes through the subs' and Doms' minds?

Joy

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 2:32:52 PM

rednicky

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To be fair, he's not the kind of guy who says:
"Get over here! You KNOW what you did!" *whap whap whap*
When I'm being punished in a sort of way that isn't play, he always explains his side and lets me explain mine, too. And usually these are small infractions. not something major. Maybe I don't move fast enough for him when I am doing something and get a few slaps on the ass. That may not be a big deal to some subs but I'm not a spanko. Whether it's 6, 10, or 20, those slaps hurt. And it's always over bare skin.

And the reason I posted this is because he's over my shoulder saying "You're making me out to be a monster." He says he can't explain to me why most people don't get upset after a small punishment. 'Normal' people just get it. The only people that don't are children.

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 2:39:02 PM

AquaticSub

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To be honest, I'm not thinking that he is a monster. I am wondering why the two of us are in a punishment dynamic when it doesn't seem to be adding to the relationship.

I think of what we do as a big sundae. You aren't required to use every topping, just the ones that are mutually enjoyable (be it direct panty wetting or some other level of enjoyment). I enjoy Valyraen being able to punish me at his own discretion. I accept that sometimes mistakes will be made as he is human. Those mistakes do not outweigh the overall enjoyment.

They don't seem to for you though. So what are punishments adding to your dynamic? You definitely aren't the only person who doesn't like them so its not an issue of "normal".

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It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 2:40:42 PM

Toppingfrmbottom

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There's only been one time I was punished and I didn't think it was deserved and it was an online relationship, and the punishment was on yahoo ims. I talked to him and told him I didn't think it was fair.

If Daddy, and I , had situations where he punished me quite regularly for things I didn't think were punishable or fair, then we'd have a serious problem. I would have no problem telling him so. And if he didn't get it, then I'd think it was an issue of compatibility and would maybe even seperate myself from him.

We don't have a punishment dynamic though, since I feel if talking to me and setting me strait verbally isn't going to do what he wants to achieve, than neither is punishing me. I am capable of learning my lesson and doing better with out punishment. If better behavior isn't acheived by talking to me then it means I don't desire to do better for you, and that's in itself a whole nothher can of worms.

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 2:56:57 PM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

To be fair, he's not the kind of guy who says:
"Get over here! You KNOW what you did!" *whap whap whap*
When I'm being punished in a sort of way that isn't play, he always explains his side and lets me explain mine, too. And usually these are small infractions. not something major. Maybe I don't move fast enough for him when I am doing something and get a few slaps on the ass. That may not be a big deal to some subs but I'm not a spanko. Whether it's 6, 10, or 20, those slaps hurt. And it's always over bare skin.

And the reason I posted this is because he's over my shoulder saying "You're making me out to be a monster." He says he can't explain to me why most people don't get upset after a small punishment. 'Normal' people just get it. The only people that don't are children.

rednicky,

In the dynamic I have with my Master, there is no such thing as a "small punishment". Not really... I will sometimes get the kind of spanking you seem to be referring to (usually as a quick attitude reminder), and if he is displeased with something it will often result in our time together being cut short, which makes quite an impact without his laying a hand on me.

I like being spanked.

Punishments aren't for small things.
I hate being punished.
He is not a monster for punishing me.

However, physical correction for you is a big deal. he can't relate to that but that doesn't make it less true.
AND if you don't understand the reason(s) why -in my opinion- it is not going to be effective in shaping your behaviour in the way he desires.

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 2:59:49 PM

rednicky

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As far as compatibility is concerned, he and are are kindred spirits in everything except spanking. He and I have so much fun together and we could be doing the stupidest things. But spanking turns him on whereas I does not turn me on. It hurts. But this is not a big enough issue that would brand us incompatible. But I like seeing what it does to him :).

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 3:04:49 PM

LillyBoPeep

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so is this kind of like a domestic discipline thing? with "maintenance" spankings and such?
is the spanking about turning him on, or is it meant as a punishment?

i guess i'm getting slightly confused. i don't think anyone's calling him a monster or calling your compatibility into question, but if punishments aren't working, they just aren't working. if you don't understand what you did wrong, then how can you be expected to alter the behavior?

if all he wants to do is spank, then perhaps he can find other reasons to do that? a lot of submissives/slaves participate in activities that they don't particularly enjoy, but do them because their Doms/Masters want to, they like to see their D/M happy, or they're service oriented, or any number of reasons.

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 3:08:42 PM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

As far as compatibility is concerned, he and are are kindred spirits in everything except spanking. He and I have so much fun together and we could be doing the stupidest things. But spanking turns him on whereas I does not turn me on. It hurts. But this is not a big enough issue that would brand us incompatible. But I like seeing what it does to him :).

So, in your eyes are his punishments basically just reasons for him to spank you?

It might be helpful if you had clear knowledge of his expectations.
Being spanked because something wasn't done quickly enough might seem arbitrary. If there are other things that seem arbitrary ... is that where the grudges are coming from?

Having clarity on what is expected of you might remedy that.

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 3:34:40 PM

littlewonder

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I can't say I've ever been punished for something I don't deserve but then again I'm the type that feels that if he thinks I deserve it then I deserve it. I don't hold grudges, I don't get angry or any of that. I take my punishment, I say I'm sorry, he absolves me and we move on, it's done.

Now if he is playing and does things to me that I just don't like then oh well... I buck up and take it. Again, I don't get angry over it. I just realize that i don't like every single thing he does to me. That's just life, that's how it is, that's what I agreed to.

He does what he wants and I just get through it the best I can and we move on. There are things I'm sure he does for me that he doesn't enjoy either....like watching certain stupid sappy movies with me lol. He deals with it because well..we're a couple and we love each other and this is what people do who like each other in that way.

I would say that if you can't get over it and it's creating a problem in your relationship that isn't being fixed by communication then it's time to start reconsidering your relationship imo or asking yourself why you can't deal with it and looking at yourself.

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 1/16/2011 3:35:19 PM >

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 3:44:38 PM

KatyLied

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~fr~
I think that punishment should be used sparingly. After the punishment I say the following (or something to this effect) "I"m sorry", "thank you for correcting me" and then I have the full expectation of moving on. No grudges, no anger. Part of being held and/or soothed is the sign to you that the punishment is over and you have entered the "moving on" phase. Punishment should not be something you enjoy. If you have trouble moving beyond your anger then you really need to communicate this with your dominant and try to reach a resolution, otherwise it will wreck your relationship.

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 3:47:38 PM

rednicky

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I can't say I've ever been punished for something I don't deserve but then again I'm the type that feels that if he thinks I deserve it then I deserve it. I don't hold grudges, I don't get angry or any of that. I take my punishment, I say I'm sorry, he absolves me and we move on, it's done.

Now if he is playing and does things to me that I just don't like then oh well... I buck up and take it. Again, I don't get angry over it. I just realize that i don't like every single thing he does to me. That's just life, that's how it is, that's what I agreed to.

He does what he wants and I just get through it the best I can and we move on. There are things I'm sure he does for me that he doesn't enjoy either....like watching certain stupid sappy movies with me lol. He deals with it because well..we're a couple and we love each other and this is what people do who like each other in that way.

I would say that if you can't get over it and it's creating a problem in your relationship that isn't being fixed by communication then it's time to start reconsidering your relationship imo or asking yourself why you can't deal with it and looking at yourself.

It's more a small annoyance than anything. This is not tearing us apart. After a few swats on to but for something I did, he wanted a hug. I asked him (playfully) why he thought I'd want to hug him after he hit me and he said he couldn't explain it. I looked online to talk to people who could.

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 4:36:05 PM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

I'm sure most D/s couples have gone through this. A sub is punished for something she doesn't think is wrong. But the Dom does. Obviously she's upset (but of course she takes her punishment like a champion). My question regards what happens afterwards. After the punishment, the dom is ready to hug and kiss the tears away but the last thing the sub wants is to cuddle with the one who caused her pain in the first place. At least, that's how I felt when it happened. But according to him, my attitude is way off base. I don't necessarily disagree. Time and time again I read stories (written by subs) of harsh punishments that ended in loving kisses and hugs. But I can't help but wonder, why? Wouldn't you be pissed? I know I was pissed.

What makes subs perfectly fine with embracing her punisher right after a punishment (especially one she felt she didn't deserve)? Why is she not upset at the punisher? I'd think everyone would be upset at their punisher. Why am I alone on this? What goes through the subs' and Doms' minds?

I don't get hugged, kissed or lovey-dovey stuff when I've been admonished, physically or otherwise. It's business as usual, knickers up, and on to the next thing.

I have to say that I've never been penalised for something undeserved. I might not LIKE his penalty, but that's the general idea I would imagine. It's not as if I'm oblivious as to what he's likely to do.

I don't *take my punishment like a champion*. I'm not some kind of martyr taking something for the greater good. I * take* what is due according to OUR expectations. There's nothing heroic about it.

It'd be a BIG problem if I was resentful; if I was penalised for something I KNEW was undeserved, that I hadn't done or wasn't responsible for. Resentment is the kiss of death, it's avoided like the plague here.

If I genuinely thought he was wrong in his assessment he'd want to hear ALL about it; Oh yes, each and EVERY tiny detail, and I'd better come up with something worth listening to.

The reason I have no resentment is because it's deserved or at the very LEAST, it's expected. ie. If I do this, he does that.

It sounds like a mismatch of expectations. You get far more aggrieved than he thinks is reasonable..... If I got severely cold-caned for every single teeny thing and M thought that was reasonable, WE'D have a mismatch too. The fact is, he knows that being caned cold is pretty severe (at least , the way he does it is!).... and if you added a resentful factor into it, things would go downhill pretty quickly.

We're meant to be together in this, it's meant to be for both of our benefit, we're both meant to spend our time smiling and having things to be joyful about, not grimacing, resentful and grudging.

I think you're BOTH off base.....of course only you two can work out where and how.

agirl

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 4:42:47 PM

catize

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I don't have a punishment dynamic, so keep in mind that my answer may be biased.
It sounds to me as if your dominant likes spanking and uses whatever 'infractions' he can as an excuse to do so. Much like the 'submissive brat' who acts up in order to get pain..Both are quite frustrating!
In my opinion, he needs to be more honest; i.e. 'I like to spank and you will just need to take it'. If you cannot accept it with good grace he needs to understand that it upsets you. Would he prefer you pretend to like it when you do not?

< Message edited by catize -- 1/16/2011 4:43:18 PM >

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RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 4:44:41 PM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

It's more a small annoyance than anything. This is not tearing us apart. After a few swats on to but for something I did, he wanted a hug. I asked him (playfully) why he thought I'd want to hug him after he hit me and he said he couldn't explain it. I looked online to talk to people who could.

No-one here can know why HE wants a hug afterwards. It could be for quite a few reasons.

agirl

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Post #: 18

RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 4:56:51 PM

Focus50

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From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

I'm sure most D/s couples have gone through this. A sub is punished for something she doesn't think is wrong. But the Dom does. Obviously she's upset (but of course she takes her punishment like a champion). My question regards what happens afterwards. After the punishment, the dom is ready to hug and kiss the tears away but the last thing the sub wants is to cuddle with the one who caused her pain in the first place. At least, that's how I felt when it happened. But according to him, my attitude is way off base. I don't necessarily disagree. Time and time again I read stories (written by subs) of harsh punishments that ended in loving kisses and hugs. But I can't help but wonder, why? Wouldn't you be pissed? I know I was pissed.

What makes subs perfectly fine with embracing her punisher right after a punishment (especially one she felt she didn't deserve)? Why is she not upset at the punisher? I'd think everyone would be upset at their punisher. Why am I alone on this? What goes through the subs' and Doms' minds?

I had the whiz-bang answer to your OP all ready to go - and then I read on.... *sigh*

Unfortunately (IMO), waaaaay too many lifestylers haven't figured out what constitutes a punishable offence (something SERIOUS that causes emotions to redline) vs some slap n tickle etc to move the sub along or get her mind focused (discipline - funishment even).

A punishment dynamic is serious, necessary and largely undesirable to me. It means she's done something that's made me *angry*. And I really don't like being angry...! But my sense of justice (re your OP) still wouldn't allow me to punish her if she couldn't or didn't understand what she did wrong.

It's soooo damned exasperatingly vanilla when peoples associate any form of physical pain, including the erotic kind that most subs enjoy even more than their dom/me, as punishment. Arrggghhhh!!!!!

Welcome to my pro-labels rant - get some; the *right* ones...!

Focus.

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Post #: 19

RE: A quick question about grudges - 1/16/2011 5:15:53 PM

barelynangel

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My dynamic worked pretty much as agirl described. We had however a discipline dynamic -- punishments happened but mostly it was discipline in order for me to keep maintaining and striving to meet his expectations and standards. And yes, he enjoyed physical discipline. It worked for me, and so it worked for us.

Of course there will be times a sub pouts or gets upset and such cause she was punished. I mean hell no one likes to be punished even when they know they are guilty. As agirl stated we aren't martyrs or saints just because we are subs or slaves. We do have healthy reactions to punishment and discipline such like anger or pouting or sulking even if it IS deserved.

So if she doesn't want to cuddle and be all forgiving to him -- MAN UP dude. Shrug it off and move on. If you need her to VALIDATE your decision to punish her, you have already lost control. So what if she pouts or gets upset. The punishment happened, if he needs forgiveness or validation for making a decision to punish her --- he is in the wrong position and maybe shouldn't be the one deciding if someone needs to be punished or hell even disciplined.

Not wanting to be cuddled or hugged or forgive the punisher after being punished has nothing to do with being an adult or more mature than someone who doesn't. People have different personalities and that is what its about. I have a hell of a temper, so when i was punished, even if i knew i deserved it, i would get mad -- it was usually at myself but manifested into anger for him. He knew it, it didn't bother him, as long as i did what i was supposed to he didn't care if i pouted or sulked because i got my ass beat. Eventually i got over my pout and sulk until the next time.

quote:

Both are quite frustrating!

FOR YOU. to me, it simply comes down to the personalities of two people. My Master wasn't a sadist but his favorite form of punishment was beating my ass. He did not spank for fun, he spanked for punishment and that was his favority form of same. i have always been a brat, but its not because i like punishments, but because i like my own way. So your assessment about why people do this is off on many levels. Sorry Catize but what YOU suggest about such a relationship to me would cause frustration in a relationship like mine. You say its frustrating --- ummm no, actually it wasn't. I don't know where you get that unless of course you are trying to project what YOU enjoy on others.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 1/16/2011 5:17:40 PM >

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