RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (Full Version)

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cadenas -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 8:21:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssSatin

I'm joining the "no we are not hard on illegal aliens" on this one. They are not immigrants and they are not guests. They invited themselves and they entered without the proper paperwork and that makes them criminals. It annoys me that the media keeps making this an immigration issue. It is NOT an immigration issue. It is an illegal alien issue. Yes my ancestors were immigrants as were many who posts here. But ours entered this country legally, with the proper paperwork and in broad daylight.


Indeed it is an immigration issue. The main difference is that immigration laws have changed between then and today. The avenues your ancestors had are closed today. Most Americans don't realize that there basically *is* no way to get the "proper paperwork" (unless you fall into one of very few categories who can still immigrate). Even if you are a highly skilled engineer, it takes five to ten years. Without marrying a US citizen, the only other classifications are through close family members - and good luck getting in. The backlog for those cases is well over 20 years in some categories. The vast majority cannot get the proper paperwork, period.

It's kinda like us deciding that we don't want freckled people driving, denying them driver's licenses, and a few years later wondering what to do about all the unlicensed drivers, and saying that "all the freckled people are criminals anyway. They should get driver's licenses like everybody else" - completely ignoring that they can't.





MstrssSatin -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 6:46:40 AM)

MsMac, regardless of your definition of immigrants they still are illegal aliens. In the context of this forum we are not discussing the semantics of a work or its usage but the context of groups of individuals entering a country illegally.

Mistress Satin




ArtCatDom -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 7:29:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssSatin

I'm joining the "no we are not hard on illegal aliens" on this one. They are not immigrants and they are not guests. They invited themselves and they entered without the proper paperwork and that makes them criminals. It annoys me that the media keeps making this an immigration issue. It is NOT an immigration issue. It is an illegal alien issue. Yes my ancestors were immigrants as were many who posts here. But ours entered this country legally, with the proper paperwork and in broad daylight.


Indeed it is an immigration issue. The main difference is that immigration laws have changed between then and today. The avenues your ancestors had are closed today. Most Americans don't realize that there basically *is* no way to get the "proper paperwork" (unless you fall into one of very few categories who can still immigrate). Even if you are a highly skilled engineer, it takes five to ten years. Without marrying a US citizen, the only other classifications are through close family members - and good luck getting in. The backlog for those cases is well over 20 years in some categories. The vast majority cannot get the proper paperwork, period.

It's kinda like us deciding that we don't want freckled people driving, denying them driver's licenses, and a few years later wondering what to do about all the unlicensed drivers, and saying that "all the freckled people are criminals anyway. They should get driver's licenses like everybody else" - completely ignoring that they can't.




Research the history of immigration in the United States a bit more. One of the first bodies of law dealt with who could immigrate to the States and under what conditions they could receive citizenship. Numerous requirements and quotas were established by such laws as the Immigration Acts of 1917 and 1924, the various Naturalisation Acts, the Anarchist Exclusion Act and so forth.

Immigration law has never been "kind" or "easy".

*meow*




LadyKim -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 8:26:33 AM)

I chime in on the HELL NO we are not being too difficult on them side.

Actually, I am wondering if anyone on here would be interested in participating in a rally SUPPORTING immigration reform.  I am working to get one started in the Atlanta, GA area that will be larger than the impromptu ones started in retaliation to the large protest marches we have had here.   My thought is to set a date and hold a rally everywhere in the country that wants to participate at that time to let the federal government know the CITIZENS of this country WANT tough legislation..... and ACTION on this issue.

If you would be interested in participating, please email me, and I'll work on getting you some information.

MzKim




Lordandmaster -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 9:01:28 AM)

There are plenty of organizations supporting immigration reform.  In fact, I think everyone agrees that there has to be immigration reform.  The differences of opinion come in when you start getting to the issues.  What KIND of reform?




meatcleaver -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 9:17:00 AM)

Thus thread makes the US sound like it's lost the self confidence and dynamism of a young country and has now reached the doubts of middleage, starting with a crisis of identity.




caitlyn -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 9:47:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Thus thread makes the US sound like it's lost the self confidence and dynamism of a young country and has now reached the doubts of middleage, starting with a crisis of identity.


This is the best point you have ever made on this board, in my opinion.[;)]
 
Two weeks ago, we were discussing the rise of China, etc ... in admiration of their mass of cheap labor. So ... lets be young and confident and get cheap labor of our own!
 
These poeple aren't going to take away jobs ... they are going to create higher paying jobs. We will need people to supervise them, people to support the businesses they work for, and much, much more.
 
Economic stagnation is the illness, and economic growth is the cure. Just my opinion.[:D]




cloudboy -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 9:59:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

There are plenty of organizations supporting immigration reform. In fact, I think everyone agrees that there has to be immigration reform. The differences of opinion come in when you start getting to the issues. What KIND of reform?


I'm going to rely on you and Dr. Phil to sort it out for us average Americans. Maybe, too, you could start a thread on polyamericanism.




kittensmailbox -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 10:05:35 AM)

No....




incognitoinmass -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 10:11:20 AM)

Build a wall. 




mskathy39 -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 10:51:40 AM)

Yes we are being hard on illegals, they pay a whole lot of taxes and then don't make out returns, they help build roads, schools, etc.




MsMacComb -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 11:22:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssSatin

MsMac, regardless of your definition of immigrants they still are illegal aliens. In the context of this forum we are not discussing the semantics of a work or its usage but the context of groups of individuals entering a country illegally.
Mistress Satin
 

MsSat,
I didnt write the dictionary. Its not "my"definition. If they move and stay here they are immigrants, period. Their legal status in that regard is irrelevant.




Mercnbeth -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 12:10:14 PM)

quote:

I didnt write the dictionary. Its not "my"definition. If they move and stay here they are immigrants


Just go back to where the word "illegal" appears in the same dictionary and you'll be on the correct page. That won't be your definition or mine, but it also applies.

Ignoring that fact doesn't remove if from consideration, or placate the immigrants who have "legal" as a modifier of their status and submit to waiting in line for the next word to look up - citizen.




kinkyromanticone -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 12:28:59 PM)

How can they be paying thier fair share of taxes without a socical security card let alone federal tax or state taxes yes they might be paying some on the stuff they buy. And are they serving in the military defending you and I like others in this land I think not. I'm for making it easier for them to become americans not african americans, jewish americans or any other label our country wants to pin on people so they can set quotes on hiring and aid and other silly stuff let them become americans pay taxes and serve to protect what they should be proud to be a part of the best country in this one persons view. Signed a proud usaf retiree




spankmepink11 -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 12:52:37 PM)

A resounding  NO  as to whether or not we are too hard on illegal immigrants.
In regard to the so called "menial" jobs.....i own a cleaning service and we get paid quite handsomely to do them...even after taxes.   Yes!!!...we  happily clean your toilets!!!!!     
 MsKathy...with all due respect, the vast majority of the illegal  immigrants  do NOT pay taxes.  You must be able to prove citizenship in order to be taxed...included in all employment applications.  Not only do they not pay taxes....but many live illegally (imagine that) by lying on housing applications that are single familiy dwellings to include 10-20 people...so they can live cheaply enough to send most of their money back to mexico...further injuring our economy.  

It's funny that someone mentioned rounding up the illegals  while they were protesting and shipping them back to mexico...my business partner and i discussed that very same thing today.

I also agree that instead of coming illegally to this country....they should change their own.  If the number of illegals banded together in mexico...i'm sure there would be enough to initiate a change there.


Peace...




MasterRenegade77 -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 1:08:10 PM)

Take the time to read this; It ought to scare the
pants off you!

We know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of
Colorado. In that context
his thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week
there was an
immigration overpopulation conference in Washington,
DC, filled to
capacity by many of American's finest minds and
leaders. A brilliant
college professor by the name of Victor Hansen Davis
talked about his
latest book, Mexifornia," explaining how immigration
- both legal and
illegal was destroying the entire state of
California. He said it
would march across the country until it destroyed
all vestiges of The
American Dream.



Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D.
Lamm stood up and
gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America.
The audience sat
spellbound as he described eight methods for the
destruction of the
United States. He said, "If you believe that America
is too smug, too
self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy
America. It is not that
hard to do. No nation in history has survived the
ravages of time.
Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations
rise and fall and
that 'An autopsy of history would show that all
great nations commit
suicide.'"



Here is how they do it," Lamm said:



"First, to destroy America, turn America into a
bilingual or
multi-lingual and bicultural country." History shows
that no nation
can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of
two or more
competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing
for an individual
to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a
society to be bilingual.
The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, ! put it
this way: "The
histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies
that do not
assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and
tragedy." Canada,
Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon all face crises of
national existence
in which minorities press for autonomy, if not
independence. Pakistan
and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an
ethnic rebellion.
France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and
Corsicans.".



Lamm went on: Second, to destroy America, "Invent
'multiculturalism'
and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture.
I would make it an
article of belief that all cultures are equal. That
there are no
cultural differences. I would make it an article of
faith that the
Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to
prejudice and
discrimination by the majority. Every other
explanation is out of
bounds.



Third, "We could make the United States an 'Hispanic
Quebec' without
much effort. The key is to! celebr ate diversity
rather than unity. As
Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly
recently: "The apparent
success of our own multiethnic and multicultural
experiment might have
been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony.
Without the dominance
that once dictated ethnocentricity and what it meant
to be an
American, we are left with only tolerance and
pluralism to hold us
together." Lamm said, "I would encourage all
immigrants to keep their
own language and culture. I would replace the
melting pot metaphor
with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to
ensure that we have
various cultural subgroups living in America
enforcing their
differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing
their similarities."



"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing
demographic group the least
educated. I would add a second underclass,
unassimilated,
undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I
would have this
second underclass have a! 50% dr opout rate from
high. school."



"My fifth point for destroying America would be to
get big foundations
and business to give these efforts lots of money. I
would invest in
ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of
'Victimology.' I
would get all minorities to think that their lack of
success was the
fault of the majority. I would start a grievance
industry blaming all
minority failure on the majority population."



"My sixth plan for America's downfall would include
dual citizenship,
and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate
diversity over unity.
I would stress differences rather than similarities.
Diverse people
worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other -
that is, when they
are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or
stable society is
against most historical precedent. People undervalue
the unity it
takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient
Greeks. The
Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race;
they possessed a
common language and literature; and they worshipped
the same gods. All
Greece took part in the Olympic games. A common
enemy, Persia,
threatened the ir liberty. Yet all these bonds were
not strong enough
to overcome two factors: local patriotism and
geographical conditions
that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E.
Pluribus Unum" --
From many, one. In that historical reality, if we
put the emphasis on
the 'pluribus'. Instead of the 'Unum,' we will
balkanize America as
surely as Kosovo."



"Next to last, I would place all subjects off
limits; make it taboo to
talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.'
I would find a
word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that
stopped
discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like
'racist' or 'xenophobe'
halt discussion and debate. Having made America a
bilingual/bicultural
country, having established multi-culturism, havi!
ng the large
foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I
would next make it
impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would
develop a mantra:
That because immigration has been good for America,
it must always be
good. I would make every individual immigrant
symmetric and ignore the
cumulative impact of millions of them."



In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm
wiped his brow.
Profound silence followed. Finally he said,.
"Lastly, I would censor
Victor Hanson Davis's book Mexifornia. His book is
dangerous. It
exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel
America. deserves to
be destroyed, don't read that book.".



There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose
like an ominous
cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every
American in that
room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was
proceeding methodically,
quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United
States today.
Discussion is b! eing su ppressed. Over 100
languages are ripping the
foundation of our educational system and national
cohesiveness. Even
barbaric cultures that practice female genital
mutilation are
growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs
are vanishing into
the
Third World as corporations create a Third World in.
America - take
note of California and other states - to date, ten
million illegal
aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George
Orwell's book
"1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in
the Ministry of
Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is
slavery," and "Ignorance
is strength.".



Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on
everyone at the
conference that our nation and the future of this
great democracy is
deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't
get this immigration
monster stopped within three years, it will rage
like a California
wildfire and destroy everything in its path,
especially The American
Dream.

Thought provoking? Send it on !!









"Do not look back and grieve over




LadyKim -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 1:11:35 PM)

 In 1986, we were told that an Amnesty of illegal immigrants would eleviate this problem.  The Amnesty was passed and what was originally thought to include only 1 million people ended up including 3 million.  Today we are in worse shape, and again the subject of amnesty for those that are already here is being addressed again.  The media is putting the number at about 12 million illegal immigrants in the US; however, immigration watch groups expect the figure to be closer to 23 million.  That is a GIGANTIC jump from the numbers covered in the last amnesty that FAILED to work obviously... or we wouldn't be at this stage today...... 20 years later.

Personally, I am in favor of sending every illegal immigrant back to their home country, and sending the bill for the cost of the deportation to the employers that hired them.  I also believe it should be a felony to be in this country illegally, and those arrested should be held in detention areas and given work to perform that generates an income for the facility to pay for their deportation and housing expenses if an employer cannot be immediately identified.




Moloch -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 1:24:55 PM)

Any of you familiar with supply and demand?  Same applies to the job market!!! Do you know any tax paying American that would would work for 6 dollars an hour while paying FEDERAL TAXES, STATE TXES,  COUNTY TAXES , PROPERTY TAXES etc.




Bindme1 -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 1:33:41 PM)

The only way to stop the flood of illegals is to come down hard on American employers who are benefitting from this source of cheap (slave?) labor. It's simply a matter of economics vs. political/social will. Americans are willing to do these jobs, but only if wages are decent. Of course, if wages go up, so do prices. Are we, as Americans ready to pay premium prices for many of our products in order for the illegal immigration problem to go away? If so, will we then be able to compete globally with countries such as China without having a cheap source of labor to exploit?




MsMacComb -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/3/2006 1:45:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

Any of you familiar with supply and demand?  Same applies to the job market!!! Do you know any tax paying American that would would work for 6 dollars an hour while paying FEDERAL TAXES, STATE TXES,  COUNTY TAXES , PROPERTY TAXES etc.
 

Only a few million. If you look at the so called "poverty level" and see that that set level is roughly the income bracket you are referring to then its beyond obvious.
There is a flip side to your supply and demand argument. Over the last decade or so the supply has increased so the demand for workers has dropped in a sense which has kept the same wages you mentioned stagnant.




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