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RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 8:13:25 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Well, up until the depression (when the Democrats finally noticed that they'd lost the civil war), the Republicans were very much the lefty American party, weren't they?

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RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 8:15:14 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		So, in the halcyon days of yore republicans wanna start a war, and they tax to pay for it.
In modern times, they wanna start a war, they borrow money from china to pay for it.

Looks kinda like they were for it before they were against it. 


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RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 8:18:04 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Well, that goes for adopting a "wide stance" in public lavatories as well, doesn't it?

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 9:09:42 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

So only 20% of what Wilbur claimed was believed by 30% of democrats is true, then?

He's still yet to provide a source for that 30% figure of his as well, hasn't he?


Willbeur doesn't do sources.

Everything the Willbeur proclaims must be accepted as fact.

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 11:02:15 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Well good morning, dear friends on the left. I hope you've enjoyed your little gangbang with Wilbur, but now you get to hear from someone who doesn't get their information from a caricature of a clown.

Now Marx and Engels were bright enough in some ways, but their understanding of human nature was fatally flawed. Quite literally fatal for millions upon millions of people unfortunate enough to live under governments that tried to make this bullshit work. The beat goes on however, under the assumption that the reason it hasn't worked is because the wrong people were in charge.

There are elements of a lot more than 2 out of 10 that the American Left are enchanted by.

1) Abolition of property rights to land, no. That is pretty much left to commies who call themselves commies, but it can be sold to the poor, and class warfare is the platform it gets sold from.

2) The income tax as a tool of wealth redistribution. Thanks for not insulting us by trying to deny that one.

3) Abolition of inheritance. Can you say "death tax?"

4) Forfeiture of emigrant and rebel assets to the state. Clear on that, but it's more a "revolution in progress," plank anyway.

5) Centralization of credit. What just happened to the student loan system in the US?

6) Government control of communication and transportation. Funny. I'd swear we had rumblings about increased censorship just here in the last couple weeks, and aren't the useful idiots of the environmentalist left trying to convince us to give up our cars and get on the bus? You'll find some version of such controls in any authoritarian school of thought.

7) Government control of agriculture and industry. That's the bright line. Here, there be socialists.

8) Everybody works. Also known as the principle of, "you don't work, you don't eat." Even most communists shy away from embracing this one too loudly. I actually like this idea, in terms of a mandatory period of national service, though I don't share much else of the vision.

9) Centralized regional planning. The vision of the landscape doesn't belong to Marx and Engels, but wanting to dictate where and how people live is very much alive and well across a broad spectrum of the left, and driven by, again, the coopted global warming cult.

10) Free public education by government schools. Be clear there, because while hardly anybody opposes free education, the folks fighting the ideas of charter schools and vouchers are well represented in the mainstream left. It has to be the state school. Nice of you to claim it, but let's be honest about what's being owned.

That looks like 6 to me, Ken. 5, if you want to quibble about communication and transportation.



< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 1/22/2011 11:16:59 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 12:09:35 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Bullshit. You're just making shit up to satisfy your preconeptions.

1. No Democrat is in favor of collectivization.

2. yes

3. No.A tax on large estates is not an abolition of inheritance. You're flat out making shit up.

4. No.

5. Centralization and a monopoly on credit by teh state. No Democrats are talking about making banks illegal. You conveniently rewrote what Marx and Engels wrote.

6. Centralization of communication and transportation by the state. No. Democrats would like less hate speech and lying by people in the media but we're not talking about outlawing everything but PBS. The same applies to transportation. We'd like to see people use public transport more but we are not talking about outlawing private airlines, private ownership of cars or anything of the sort. More flat out made up shit by Heretic.

7. No

8. Everybody works (also implies everyone paid the same and some other stuff). No.

9. This is about a lot more than modern US regional planning. Marx and Engels thought people would be better off if they split time between factory and farm labor. A lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum are pushing improved urban planning. So another No.

10. More than free education. The authors aso wanted youth to be employeed in industrial production. Almost everyone supports free education but hardly anyone supports child labor.

So as I said above only 2 and part of 10.

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 12:29:25 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		You're the expert at making shit up, Ken. I'm just looking at these things from a position where incremental steps are completely acceptable, as they were to the guys who dreamed this nightmare up.

On education, as with regional planning, social developments have modified the specifics, but the underlying theme remains the same. Government control of educating youth, within a monopolistic system.



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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 12:34:48 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Government control of educating youth, within a monopolistic system.


Would you not view the voucher system, and even alternative schooling, including home schooling, as a way around the government control of education?

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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 12:56:26 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

You're the expert at making shit up, Ken. I'm just looking at these things from a position where incremental steps are completely acceptable, as they were to the guys who dreamed this nightmare up.

On education, as with regional planning, social developments have modified the specifics, but the underlying theme remains the same. Government control of educating youth, within a monopolistic system.

Marx and Engels weren't talking about incremental steps. And no Democrat today is talking about taking things as far as Marx and Engels wanted.

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 1:04:32 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

but wanting to dictate...how people live is very much alive and well across a broad spectrum of the left


And the right.

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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 1:52:58 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Government control of educating youth, within a monopolistic system.


Would you not view the voucher system, and even alternative schooling, including home schooling, as a way around the government control of education?



I absolutely would view them as a way around centralized government control of education, Tazzy. And lots of lefties are utterly opposed to such things.



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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 1:54:03 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Im not.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 2:04:23 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Marx and Engels weren't talking about incremental steps.



Speaking of you making shit up, Ken, that's a doozie, even by your standards. Marx and Engels saw a process, an evolution, and steps that conditioned the people to the new order were certainly part of that. Their willingness to incrementalize is evident in the very list of benchmarks we are discussing. How could they sieze the property of the rebels and emigrants if property already had been abolished? They were also extremely pragmatic about how to move forward to the revolution. Engels even said that when the stage was bourgeois vs. aristocrat, the rightful place for the communist was shoulder to shoulder with the bourgeois, and we defeat them later.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 2:08:34 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

but wanting to dictate...how people live is very much alive and well across a broad spectrum of the left


And the right.


Pretty common theme for authoritarians everywhere, Muse, especially with your tactical edit. Bring back the "where" and it gets more focused into the envirofascist left again.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 2:19:55 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Im not.



Wonderful, Tazzy. Unfortunately, your position regarding the government's role in healthcare costs you a point on the control of industry tenet.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 2:23:46 PM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

8) Everybody works. Also known as the principle of, "you don't work, you don't eat." Even most communists shy away from embracing this one too loudly. I actually like this idea, in terms of a mandatory period of national service, though I don't share much else of the vision.

Isn't that notion a lot more popular with libertarians than the left?
I'm not sure how you can reconcile arguing that the American left are all in favour of workfare when the right leaning element on here spends so much time bitching about paying taxes from their hard earned wages so that lazy bums can sit on their arses in a trailer park collecting welfare. Does the fact that you've cited the above as a communist principle adopted by the leftist democrats mean that we're never going to hear that particular strawman (welfare dependency, lazy fuckers who don't want to work, and the rest of that stuff) from you again?

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 2:35:56 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Does the fact that you've cited the above as a communist principle adopted by the leftist democrats mean that we're never going to hear that particular strawman (welfare dependency, lazy fuckers who don't want to work, and the rest of that stuff) from you again?



What the fuck are you talking about, Moon? Where do I say Dems advocate for this? I gave it a "no," and noted that even admitted communists keep this part of the program close when they are out recruiting.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 2:42:19 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		If the Dems are crypto Marxists, then they embrace the whole package and can't pick and chose. If even one tenet is ruled out, then they are not communists.
Sorry, but that's the way closed ideologies work. It's an either or thing. 50% is not good enough.

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 1/22/2011 2:43:32 PM >

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 3:06:13 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Run along, Moon. Trying to move the goalposts that far is just increasing the embarassment factor.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Tucson and the Media - 1/22/2011 3:06:15 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Im not.



Wonderful, Tazzy. Unfortunately, your position regarding the government's role in healthcare costs you a point on the control of industry tenet.


To attempt to prevent the loss of lives, i willingly give up that point.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 140
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