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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 11:43:51 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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ElSabio, do you ever worry about someone you know losing their job to a younger worker? Do you ever worry about someone close to you being unable to get a job because of their age? For jobs that have remained in the US, age discrimination is a huge problem for one reason. Higher insurance premiums based on age. The more older workers a company employs, the higher the insurance premiums.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to ElSabio)
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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 2:24:54 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Incidentally,

[and no, I'm not denying there's a trade deficit, folks--clearly there IS]

This is an interesting NPR piece (I've linked to the transcript page, where you can also hear the audio if you choose) about the iPhone and the U.S./China trade gap.

Because imported goods are evaluated at full value, the iPhone accounts for about $2 billion of that trade deficit (that figure is disputed, but the point remains). However, the parts of the iPhone all come from U.S. companies, manufacturer on U.S. soil--the phone is merely assembled in China, a small part of it's value.

Presumably, the iPhone is just one example.

Tracing the Trade Deficit Back to the iPhone


Im not sure of the point this is trying to make. Yes, the full value of the iPhone increases the import side of the trade deficit, but the parts that are sold to be assembled increase the export side. The net effect on the balance of trade is the value added by the Chinese assembly process and the transportation costs.


_____________________________

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 2:34:17 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl


With single-payer, everybody receives health care. Because the cost is spread out among the healthy as well as the sick, everybody pays less. Employers who outsource work to avoid paying insurance premiums would no longer have a reason to do. Older workers wouldn't be terminated and replaced with younger workers to keep company insurance premiums down. Companies would no longer be responsible for paying insurance premiums.[/color]



Wow. This is such nonsense it actually turns the stomach.

"Everybody pays less because the cost is spread" Uhhhh, no. The healthy pay more than they otherwise would. The healthy, many of whom are healthy largely because they invested in their own health.

"Employers who outsource work to avoid paying insurance premiums" Uhhhhh, no. If an employer doesnt want to pay insurance premiums he says "im not paying insurance premiums anymore", he doesnt outsource the work to another company that is in the business to make their own profits. Work is outsourced when it saves the company money because the leasing company has skills and efficiencies outside the lessor's core competencies.

You seem to miss the key word in single payer....PAYER. SOMEBODY ALWAYS PAYS THE COST.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 2:37:06 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
"Employers who outsource work to avoid paying insurance premiums" Uhhhhh, no. If an employer doesnt want to pay insurance premiums he says "im not paying insurance premiums anymore", he doesnt outsource the work to another company that is in the business to make their own profits. Work is outsourced when it saves the company money because the leasing company has skills and efficiencies outside the lessor's core competencies.

If somebody wants to start cutting costs, outsourcing the workforce to a country where you can get a university graduate for a fiver a week is often an attractive move, sadly.

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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 2:37:07 PM   
bornslave9


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy]You seem to miss the key word in single payer....PAYER. SOMEBODY ALWAYS PAYS THE COST.


Highlight the part in her post where she says single payer is free.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 3:25:45 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bornslave9

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy]You seem to miss the key word in single payer....PAYER. SOMEBODY ALWAYS PAYS THE COST.


Highlight the part in her post where she says single payer is free.


The entire premise of her post is that somehow by making health care single payer you "relieve the burden of employers to pay for it". Unless she is maintaining that it somehow makes it free, the entire concept is nonsensical, because whether its paid out of corporate profits or indvidual income taxes there is no fucking difference.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
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to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 3:33:04 PM   
mnottertail


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FINE.  Then pay it all out of corporate profits, 100%.

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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 3:59:14 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The entire premise of her post is that somehow by making health care single payer you "relieve the burden of employers to pay for it". Unless she is maintaining that it somehow makes it free, the entire concept is nonsensical, because whether its paid out of corporate profits or indvidual income taxes there is no fucking difference.


Single-payer health care is NOT free. The difference between the cost coming from corporate profits and individual income taxes is that companies have the power of hiring, firing, age discrimination, and outsourcing.


_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 4:11:32 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Protectionism only sounds good. The repercussions are ugly. Remember, we're the world's third largest exporter.

Know why we're the world's largest importer? Because we're comparatively far richer.



I've seen you say this before many times, but China is now the second largest economy and gaining rapidly.


And you think protectionism is going to change that?

They've got a ways to go. Our economy is three times theirs.

Now, if Ming Dynasty China hadn't turned protectionist, they'd already own our asses.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/20/2011 4:19:32 PM >

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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 4:12:37 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

whether its paid out of corporate profits or indvidual income taxes there is no fucking difference


Well there is a difference in hiring incentive, but point taken.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 4:14:26 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

The healthy, many of whom are healthy largely because they invested in their own health.


That's pretty debatable, without any numbers. Do you mean other than setting money aside as virtual insurance?

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 4:14:44 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl


With single-payer, everybody receives health care. Because the cost is spread out among the healthy as well as the sick, everybody pays less. Employers who outsource work to avoid paying insurance premiums would no longer have a reason to do. Older workers wouldn't be terminated and replaced with younger workers to keep company insurance premiums down. Companies would no longer be responsible for paying insurance premiums.



Wow. This is such nonsense it actually turns the stomach.

"Everybody pays less because the cost is spread" Uhhhh, no. The healthy pay more than they otherwise would. The healthy, many of whom are healthy largely because they invested in their own health.



I will agree with you about turning the stomach, but I'm sort of used to that when reading your posts.

Are you really this ignorant not to understand that you are describing the insurance system we have now?

And also too ignorant to realize that one of the main objectives of single-payer is to encourage preventive care, which many neglect now because of the cost.





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 1/20/2011 4:16:50 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 4:16:32 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

or the brain dead leftists of this country, this is just too hard to figure out


Then how do you explain that two "brain dead leftists," Ron and I, are arguing against protectionism?

That knee jerking again?

(in reply to ElSabio)
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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 4:18:32 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

It's funny, most people think China has the hammer over us because of all the money we owe them. But, if we can't pay them back I'd say that (we) have the hammer over (them.) Debt can be used as a "weapon" it seems.


More than that. China needs us in a number of ways--more high tech, for instance. And we're a large market.

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 4:23:54 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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Willbeur, why do you think republican leaders voted against the bill designed to discourage outsourcing? Their campaign before the last election was all about jobs. I think if democrats had reminded everyone of this in their campaigns and more had mentioned it on their tv ads, democrats would've retained majority in the House.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 4:26:09 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Protectionism only sounds good. The repercussions are ugly. Remember, we're the world's third largest exporter.

Know why we're the world's largest importer? Because we're comparatively far richer.



I've seen you say this before many times, but China is now the second largest economy and gaining rapidly.


And you think protectionism is going to change that?

They've got a ways to go. Our economy is three times theirs.

Now, if Ming Dynasty China hadn't turned protectionist, they'd already own our asses.



Then what do you suggest as a solution?

I listen to everyone complaining about the unemployment rate.

Meanwhile, I am looking at jobs being outsourced and a flood of imported products.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 4:33:47 PM   
Musicmystery


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A solution to which problem?

Jobs were being outsourced when the unemployment rate was low. Nor is that why we have high unemployment--we have dramatically increased productivity. That's why GDP is still growing.

What "flood of imported products"? Do you mean more than usual? Really? Who's buying all these goods, the unemployed?

Point is, knee jerk sound bites don't solve problems, no matter how enticing they might sound.

Or do you mean the trade deficit? One solution is to grow our exports--and we are. In 2008, we exported $1.2 billion, and in 2010, $1.8 billion. President Obama has also made exports a priority--I think his goals are fantasy, but the programs to promote our products are still a good idea.

Working with China regarding its currency policies is another solution, and a situation that is slowly improving. So is cracking down on intellectual property theft.

Further, China's situation isn't etched in stone. As their middle class grows, and as their economy expands, there will be slower growth (basic economics--costs will rise).



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/20/2011 4:38:13 PM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 4:37:00 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

A solution to which problem?

Jobs were being outsourced when the unemployment rate was low. Nor is that why we have high unemployment--we have dramatically increased productivity. That's why GDP is still growing.

What "flood of imported products"? Do you mean more than usual? Really? Who's buying all these goods, the unemployed?

Point is, knee jerk sound bites don't solve problems, no matter how enticing they might sound.


So in other words, you would prefer to not acknowledge the problems.

Which makes it easy to find a solution, since there is no problem to begin with.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 4:38:12 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The entire premise of her post is that somehow by making health care single payer you "relieve the burden of employers to pay for it". Unless she is maintaining that it somehow makes it free, the entire concept is nonsensical, because whether its paid out of corporate profits or indvidual income taxes there is no fucking difference.


Single-payer health care is NOT free. The difference between the cost coming from corporate profits and individual income taxes is that companies have the power of hiring, firing, age discrimination, and outsourcing.



Same pants, different pockets.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: a challenge for republicans - 1/20/2011 4:39:22 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

The healthy, many of whom are healthy largely because they invested in their own health.


That's pretty debatable, without any numbers. Do you mean other than setting money aside as virtual insurance?


Real insurance, virtual insurance and lifestyle changes.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 40
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