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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/3/2006 3:02:51 PM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		I always enjoy it when a humiliation thread comes up because I am so intrigued by it.  It think it is because I don't get humiliation, but I glimpse it.  When I hear other people describe a specific situation that was humiliating and their reaction to it, I get those glimpses.  I have seen one of my partners humiliate his submissive, in a mild way and for the purpose of expressing dominance/reminding of place/altering a behavior. It always makes me uncomfortable.  I look away and resist the urge to immediately comfort her.  He has yet to humiliate me and I think it is probably because he is unsure how I would react.  I am unsure how I would react.

While I have been embrassed or humiliated once in a while in every day life, it typically is a result of my own behavior that I am ashamed of or embarassed by, so I was inflicting that burn on myself.  The exception would be if my ex every got pissy with me in front of my family or friends -- it always angered me because it was "humiliating" I would tell him.  He learned to wait and make pissy comments privately and it all went much better.

I don't think I have ever been humiliated w/in the context of a scene or w/in the context of a s/D dynamic. There have been things that others might find humiliating, but just aren't for me.  I have a pretty good idea of what WOULD be humiliating though.

I have read Tross' humiliation essay before and the sexual usage and sexual objectification just doesn't resonate as humiliating for me.  Hot -- yes.  A weird mix of hate and love and nastiness -- yes. Burning humiliation -- no.  But begging for cake?  Even without the details I completely get how that would be "burning."

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Humiliation??? - 5/3/2006 5:55:17 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		well done Padraig!!! My compliments and admiration to wisely written thoughts.  I very much share your distinction from Humilation and Degradation.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Padriag)
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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/3/2006 7:07:02 PM   
Sabella


Posts: 265
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline 		Padraig, as usual - that was beautifully written! 

_____________________________

“The giant Grof was hit in one eye by a stone,
and that eye turned inward so that it looked into his mind and he died of what he saw there.”
From The Forgotten Beasts of Eld, by Patricia A. McKillip

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/3/2006 7:29:13 PM   
sylphgossamer


Posts: 383
Joined: 1/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
Humiliation versus Degradation
A lifestyle essay

By: P Sean ONeal, copyright 1998, 2006


this distinction is one which should be well understood before anyone undertakes to partake of any activities that they feel come under the heading of "humiliation." degradation is a far different thing, with far different results, than humiliation. thank you, Padriag, for presenting a well organized essay on the two.

_____________________________

got shoes?

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Humiliation??? - 5/3/2006 7:56:04 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		Easily.

It's always been difficult for me to explain humiliation. I have often found that so few women truly and passionately enjoy the experience and kink of humiliation and objectification. In fact, I've discussed it at length with Fetish Diva Midori, because she and I did a humiliation demo together. She admitted to me that in all her travels and experience, she knew very very few female bottoms who enjoyed humiliation.

So, how can it be humiliating if I like it? Well, it's humiliating because the words and the experiences are humiliating. They're degrading. They're harsh. The work of a great top is in knowing how to push the buttons of shame and hurt, and making them into an intense and wonderful scene.

For instance, I'm really ashamed of my lust. I totally admit it, here, in front of everyone on the forums. I'm ashamed of being a sexual creature. So, when my top teases me about being a slut and a whore, teases me about wanting an orgasm, about begging to suck his cock--when he forces me to admit that I lust for him...it's humiliating. It's shameful. And his pushing of that is erotic. I can't explain the reaction, but it is.

Sometimes, it isn't the words, but the actions. Sometimes he'll force me to do things that I swore I would never do-that they were actions that were below me, they were actions that I was *too* good for, or too refined for. These things are degrading. And that experience is intensely erotic. Again, I don't know why I get that experience, but I do.

What makes some people simply ashamed and embarassed without any erotic experience makes me feel horny (under the right conditions). Similarly, what makes some people scream in pain and genuine hurt without any erotic experience makes me feel orgasmic (under the right conditions). Why? I have no idea. That's just how I'm wired.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to kittensmailbox)
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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/3/2006 8:00:40 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittensmailbox

i do thank everyone who wrote, i must be just a box of rocks, because i still do not understand if humiliation is enjoyable how can it be humiliation and not just "getting attention" "look at me, see what i will do" as where to me humiliation would something of shame {to me}....

I call humiliationg a "burning."

I love it and I hate it.  It rips me up, makes me feel helpless, and I love/hate it all the more.  It's an intense amalgamation of emotions and reactions.

And humiliation isn't always about seeing things.  One of the most intense humiliations I've had to endure was to beg for a piece of cake from my master.  It was a moment between him and I alone- and yet it blew me away.  I loved knowing he knew me enough to be able to reach into me that easily and that simply.  I loved knowing he WOULD do that to me, and I also hated it.


I agree. I love it and I absolutely hate it. After all, it makes me cry. It brings me to an absolute breaking point. I cry. I scream. I falter. I have to beg. It's definitely humiliating and harsh and sometimes downright cruel. And I get off on that.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/3/2006 8:40:51 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag


Degradation is, without question, destructive to the submissive. Its consequences are unhealthy and potentially disastrous to the relationship. As a tool to achieve dominance it is a weak form and unreliable, leaving the submissive more susceptible to outside influences that can destabilize the relationship. Humiliation as a tool can be useful in altering the submissives attitude without destroying their self esteem. It can be useful in establishing and reinforcing roles within the relationship. Combined with other positive methods, it can help produce a submissive that is happy in their relationship and their role and thus less susceptible to other influences, helping to make the relationship more stable. With an understanding of how to use humiliation as a tool, and the destructive nature of degradation, a dominant can work towards creating a better relationship and a more responsive submissive.



I enjoyed the humiliation part of your essay but must confess I do not agree with "without question" regarding degradation.  What if a slave thrives from it?  What if she begs for it?  What if it brings her clsoer to her Master?  Degradation can indeed be quite damaging, and likely is to many.  But without question?  I am leery of universal statements like that. 

What of toilet slaves?  Is that degradation?  Or canine?  Or any other debasing acts?  Or...is it a case of defining what is degrading vs. what is humiliating?

Great thought provoking essay...

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Humiliation??? - 5/3/2006 8:52:14 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Degradation is, without question, destructive to the submissive. Its consequences are unhealthy and potentially disastrous to the relationship. As a tool to achieve dominance it is a weak form and unreliable, leaving the submissive more susceptible to outside influences that can destabilize the relationship. Humiliation as a tool can be useful in altering the submissives attitude without destroying their self esteem. It can be useful in establishing and reinforcing roles within the relationship. Combined with other positive methods, it can help produce a submissive that is happy in their relationship and their role and thus less susceptible to other influences, helping to make the relationship more stable. With an understanding of how to use humiliation as a tool, and the destructive nature of degradation, a dominant can work towards creating a better relationship and a more responsive submissive.


Judging by the flow of your essay, I'd say that your opinion on the topic is not in regards to play or scening so much as a tool in the training of a submissive by a dominant. Personally, I would not use humiliation OR degradation as a tool to train a submissive, nor would I accept it as a training tool if I were the submissive in that scenario.

However, on a scening basis, I don't consider degradation to be particularly harmful on a long-term basis. After all, most people who engage in this particular kink enjoy the effects and consent to be a part of them. Personally, I can't take a LOT of degradation, but I can stand a little to get me into a particular frame of mind. For instance, if I'm about to do a rape play scene, I enjoy a bit of degradation to get me into the right headspace. I get off on being told that I'm good for nothing or that I'm only useful as a glory hole. I like being forced to say these things about myself, and being "punished" if I can't admit them.

It's humiliating and degrading, but it's only a scene and I can stop it if I need to, or my top will stop it if he feels the need to do so.

When I consider the way that I play with humiliation, degradation, and objectification, I wouldn't incorporate any of those techniques into a long-term based relationship dynamic. For me, it would lead to low self-esteem and a lot of pain.

So, while I don't think degradation is destructive on a scening or play-time basis, I do agree partially that it could be during a relationship dynamic.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to Padriag)
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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/7/2006 7:55:36 AM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		Padriag!  Well done!!!  I want to know you...I can hardly wait to find your website. I want to read more of your posts; more of your essays.
 
Okay, back to humiliation (I'm going to ignore degradation because I, too, find it distructive (imho)).  So far I've seen the word 'control' mentioned once with regard to humiliation (by Padriag of course! LOL)  Isn't that what we crave, as submissives; Control?
 
For the longest time I didn't 'get' humiliation, either.  You might have said that, along with needles, humiliation was a Limit.  Since then, I have discovered that, with trusted Dominants both are quite hot!  I am a strong, confident person...but the Power Enchange is something I absolutely enjoy.  Giving up power, experiencing control by someone else...OMG!
 
Maybe if one switches 'humiliation' for 'control' they would better understand why some desire it so?

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Humiliation??? - 5/8/2006 9:25:27 AM   
Daddy4Princess4


Posts: 81
Joined: 11/15/2005
Status: offline 		It is in response to being "compelled" or "made" to do something one finds embarrassing that the submissive experiences the control.  When she does something she could not have imagined doing previously, she is acknowledging that she has surrendered her decision to him.  Hence, relatively simply things like flashing a stranger, handing over her panties in public, or wearing a "slut" necklace or shirt when she has previously thought of herself as a "good girl" are acts in which his domination results in her blushing, either literally or figuratively.

Making a woman blush in these ways is very powerful.

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Humiliation??? - 5/8/2006 9:28:55 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4Princess4
It is in response to being "compelled" or "made" to do something one finds embarrassing that the submissive experiences the control. 

I know that's what it is for a lot of people.  But this particular humiliation slut doensn't get turned on by that little button at all.  I don't feel a need to lose responsibility for myself by being "made" to do it, and it's not at all a sense of opening the "darker portals" of my self.

But again, that's exactly what it is for a lot of people.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Daddy4Princess4)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Humiliation??? - 5/16/2006 10:11:36 AM   
Daddy4Princess4


Posts: 81
Joined: 11/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4Princess4
It is in response to being "compelled" or "made" to do something one finds embarrassing that the submissive experiences the control. 

I know that's what it is for a lot of people.  But this particular humiliation slut doensn't get turned on by that little button at all.  I don't feel a need to lose responsibility for myself by being "made" to do it, and it's not at all a sense of opening the "darker portals" of my self.

But again, that's exactly what it is for a lot of people.


So is it being pushed beyond what you thought you could do?  Finding a trigger that makes you shocked at what you have done?  Perhaps through hypnosis feeling something you haven't felt before?

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Humiliation??? - 5/16/2006 10:30:37 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4Princess4
So is it being pushed beyond what you thought you could do?  Finding a trigger that makes you shocked at what you have done?  Perhaps through hypnosis feeling something you haven't felt before?

None of that.

It's the other person letting me know they have exactly the power and authority to reach into me, flick my buttons as easily as turning on a light switch AND letting me know they WILL do so whenever and however they please.

That is when I am humbled and humiliated.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Daddy4Princess4)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Humiliation??? - 5/16/2006 12:38:15 PM   
gypsytasha


Posts: 15
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: seattle washington
Status: offline 		AMEN to your statement  dear humilation both verbal and natural deframes the  whole relationship it is destructive and very harmful to the psyche, my Submission accents the dominance of  my Master, how can a Master excell at being his office if not by the ultimate and unadultrated submision of his counterpart his slave/submissive, when the time comes that i do find the right combination for me He will have the good insight to know i am his lady and property and as such a whisper will be my command and if i need to be santioned or discplined he will have the good sence to not humilate me either verbelly or emmotionally.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Humiliation??? - 5/16/2006 12:41:46 PM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		Gypsy,

While i understand what it is you are saying that humiliation would be destructive to you, please do also understand that to some of us humiliation is a HUGE turn-on and something that is not destructive to the relationship, but rather is something that enhanced and builds the relationship. Everyone's mileage varies.

(in reply to gypsytasha)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Humiliation??? - 5/16/2006 6:24:43 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		You are over thinking this. Just enjoy it.

(in reply to kittensmailbox)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Humiliation??? - 5/16/2006 8:25:11 PM   
gypsytasha


Posts: 15
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: seattle washington
Status: offline 		i do understand forgive me it is one of my sore spots what is great forsome is not particurly grand for another

(in reply to heartfeltsub)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Humiliation??? - 5/17/2006 9:06:33 AM   
Daddy4Princess4


Posts: 81
Joined: 11/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4Princess4
So is it being pushed beyond what you thought you could do?  Finding a trigger that makes you shocked at what you have done?  Perhaps through hypnosis feeling something you haven't felt before?

None of that.

It's the other person letting me know they have exactly the power and authority to reach into me, flick my buttons as easily as turning on a light switch AND letting me know they WILL do so whenever and however they please.

That is when I am humbled and humiliated.


Let me give you a scenario and see what you think.  I know a girl who has exceptionally sensitive nipples.  With a simple comment, or even just a glance, they became aroused.  She is petite, so it is very noticable when this happens, especially since she likes silk blouses and whispy bras. 

When she is "poking out" like that, her cheeks get a lovely shade of pink, and she begins to have trouble putting thoughts together (she is otherwise quite bright).  It seems that while the situtation is embarrassing to her, she also seems to enjoy it. Part of her enjoyment comes from my control of this arousal and her subsequent embarrassment, and she keeps coming back for more.

Since she seems to be "asking for it", does that make it any less humiliation?

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Humiliation??? - 5/17/2006 9:11:35 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4Princess4
Since she seems to be "asking for it", does that make it any less humiliation?

If asked to make an educated guess- yes I'd say it was still humiliation.

However, humliation is such a complex and completely internal process that it's really never possible for anyone to say except the person experiencing it what it actually is to them.

Like I said in my other response- I know that being pushed into doing something shocked is what it is for a lot of people, or being pushed into something they wouldn't normally do.  But this particular humiliation slut doensn't get turned on by that little button at all. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Daddy4Princess4)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Humiliation??? - 5/17/2006 9:32:19 AM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		 
quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsytasha

AMEN to your statement  dear humilation both verbal and natural deframes the  whole relationship it is destructive and very harmful to the psyche, my Submission accents the dominance of  my Master, how can a Master excell at being his office if not by the ultimate and unadultrated submision of his counterpart his slave/submissive, when the time comes that i do find the right combination for me He will have the good insight to know i am his lady and property and as such a whisper will be my command and if i need to be santioned or discplined he will have the good sence to not humilate me either verbelly or emmotionally.



I have SUCH a difficult time with such pronunciations; especially when done with such a knowledgeable tone, yet without punctuation and so difficult to read!

Please try to remember EVERYTHING is relative!  And…that YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary) and your kink isn’t better than mine, nor mine yours, of course.

For SOME…humiliation is physical and/or verbal abuse.  For SOME…humiliation is mild embarrassment or teasing. 

While I used to wonder what it was that attracted people to humiliation, I have come to thoroughly enjoy SOME aspects of it.  Teasing, to me, is a delicious way to play and lets me know he considers me delightful and fun to be with.  Oh, and the delight is all mine... while watching him enjoy himself so.   LOL


< Message edited by Bearlee -- 5/17/2006 9:35:26 AM >

(in reply to gypsytasha)
Profile   Post #: 40
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