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Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 7:34:38 PM   
anthrosub


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Status: offline 		This is really quite disturbing. We have a real conflict impacting the public school system and apparently a host of teachers who are either afraid, unwilling, or poorly trained to deal with it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41313808/ns/technology_and_science-science

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 7:51:44 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Oh for fucks sake, Anthro, so what? Young students should get the odd teacher who is a complete loon on something. It helps them learn that the world is full of dumbasses in positions of authority.

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 8:13:39 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Shit, don't get on his case over it, in other words don't have a cow.

I reconciled this bullshit when I was about seven. Can't anyone find a brain cell that can figure out that before the Earth was made, one day meant nothing ? Could've been a trillion years for all we know. And even after the "creation" af man, until it was sentient, it did not define days. And if you want to create a Man, what would you use ? A process of evolution right ?

The axiom of dust to dust or whatever is true, we are dust. This planet is made of dust and we have had very little from the outside in the way of material to create us. And sewing of loincloths to avoid the sexual tension, coupled with not mating with other primates, is what made us what we are. It allowed us to live as Men rather than animals, and perhaps that was the original sin. Of course that assumes that it really happened, sometimes I have doubts.

When people can't figure out that there are no days and years without a planet orbiting the sun, I don't know what to tell them. And if we dare call ourselves human rather than animals, that is just one step towards calling ourselves Gods. To engineer genetics, to tamper with natural selection, and the ramifications thereof are such foreign concepts to most people that I doubt many will ever understand. Not that I do completely, but I wasn't there. Nor do I care. (anymore)

T^T

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 8:37:35 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		Intelligent design.


Too bad-  more of us dont have it.

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 8:47:56 PM   
anthrosub


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Status: offline 		Good points made by both of you. Buuuuuut...what concerned me from the article is how it suggests we may (emphasis on may) be entering a time when what teachers teach is being driven by what they feel is "safe" to teach. Will it get that bad? Who knows? Kinda makes you wonder though.

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 8:52:27 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Oh for fucks sake, Anthro, so what? Young students should get the odd teacher who is a complete loon on something. It helps them learn that the world is full of dumbasses in positions of authority.


You seriously don't think that it's a bit of a problem when 1 out of every 7 science teachers is completely ignorant about science?

Are you OK, then, with math teachers who teach your kids that 2+2=5, and 5x5=555?  That's good for the kids, because it helps them learn not to trust teachers?

How about English teachers who teach your kids that they should never begin sentences with capital letters or use punctuation? That's OK too?

History teachers who teach your kids that Japan and Germany won World War II because the United States sank all of Italy's aircraft carriers when we attacked the Italian naval base at Pearl Harbor? No problem, right? Teaches the kids to do their own research.

And I'm sure you won't mind if 1 out of every 7 teachers in your town teach the kids that sex doesn't really cause pregnancy, because babies come from eating artichokes. That's good for the kids, too, and won't really hurt them that badly, because nothing teaches a teenager responsibility like becoming a parent.

American students are idiots compared to the students of almost every other Western country with whom we are competing, and this shameful apathy regarding the criminal, willful ignorance in our education system is at the root of the problem. As long as America tolerates teachers teaching our children primitive superstitions instead of solid science, look forward to many generations of America being a second-world country.




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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 9:14:17 PM   
eihwaz


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Status: offline 		Disturbing yes, but unfortunately nothing new:

The State of Tennessee v. Scopes (1925)

Epperson v. Arkansas, 393 U.S. 97 (1968)

Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 US 578 (1987)

McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education, 529 F. Supp. 1255, 1258-1264 (ED Ark. 1982)

Willoughby v. Stever Civ. A. No. 1574-72 (D.D.C.) aff'd mem. 504 F.2d 271 (D.C. Cir. 1974), cert. denied, 420 U.S. 927 (1975)

Daniel v. Waters, 515 F.2d 485 (6th Cir. 1975)

Hendren et al. v. Cambell et al.

Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al. (400 F. Supp. 2d 707, Docket no. 4cv2688)

Anti-intellectualism and opposition to science are old American cultural themes.

BTW, the article you cite presents what to me is a false opposition between "creationist" and "scientist," as one can be both (although "literal creationism" and science are mutually exclusive):  It's just that the existence/non-existence of God and whether or not it created the universe are not, IMO, scientific questions.



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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 9:14:49 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Nope. If they can't teach the students what they need to know to pass those precious standardized tests, fire the useless fucks. I'm the one who thinks teacher's unions should be banned, remember?



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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 9:19:52 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		And why don't we have a look at those standardized tests while we're at it ?

T^T

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 9:32:52 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
Good points made by both of you. Buuuuuut...what concerned me from the article is how it suggests we may (emphasis on may) be entering a time when what teachers teach is being driven by what they feel is "safe" to teach. Will it get that bad? Who knows? Kinda makes you wonder though.

Like I said before, nothing new.  Science was horribly politicized during the Reagan and GW Bush administrations. (NB: The question of what research to fund is always or often political.  However, science is corrupted when politics or commerce dictate the acceptable findings of scientific research.)

The politicization of education is also nothing new and has often affected the teaching of American history (genocide and conquest or Manifest Destiny?) and American Literature (in fact, even introducing the subject "American Literature" into the curriculum was a big deal at the time), for example.

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 9:55:15 PM   
Aylee


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Status: offline 		Oh FFS!  None of these teachers should be teaching evolution.  It is a complicated subject and I highly doubt that even 13% of them understand it. 

And WHOSE theory of evolution are they teaching anyways?  And WHICH one(s)? 

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 10:06:37 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
And WHOSE theory of evolution are they teaching anyways?  And WHICH one(s)? 

Darwin's?

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 10:13:15 PM   
Aylee


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Status: offline 		That is unlikely.  Darwin believed in creation, for one.  Also his theories have been rather "refined" over the years. 

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 10:22:31 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

That is unlikely.  Darwin believed in creation, for one.  Also his theories have been rather "refined" over the years. 


Creation and evolution are not exclusive, though, and do not necessarily contradict each other. In fact, they don't even address the same subject.

But that aside, the basic mechanism of evolution is beyond doubt, and a working comprehension of the concept is absolutely essential for anyone studying biology. There's no good reason at all for a school district not teaching evolution to its students.


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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/28/2011 10:40:39 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

But that aside, the basic mechanism of evolution is beyond doubt, and a working comprehension of the concept is absolutely essential for anyone studying biology. There's no good reason at all for a school district not teaching evolution to its students.



Which basic mechanism?

Genetic drift?
Mutation?
Natural selection?
Gene flow?
Punctuated equilibrium?

You want them to talk about those moths on the tree?  That was proven false.
How about the evolution of the horse?  Oh shit.  They got that one wrong too.

Just how complete would you say our fossil record is? 

Are you going to use that oh-so-lovely "stages of man" poster?

There is really no good reason for a school district to be teaching evolution unless we are talking about an advance placement biology course that can give it at least a week to two week discussion. 

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/29/2011 12:15:01 AM   
Fellow


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quote:

There is really no good reason for a school district to be teaching evolution unless we are talking about an advance placement biology course that can give it at least a week to two week discussion.


If a teacher strongly believes in evolution she/he can certainly mix it with other subjects. Perhaps it would require better educated teacher compared to average. There is a danger of dogmatism as both the evolutionism and the creationism are concerned.

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/29/2011 12:38:29 AM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
There is really no good reason for a school district to be teaching evolution unless we are talking about an advance placement biology course that can give it at least a week to two week discussion. 


In that case, why do we teach them anything in school?

pam

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/29/2011 6:39:59 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

But that aside, the basic mechanism of evolution is beyond doubt, and a working comprehension of the concept is absolutely essential for anyone studying biology. There's no good reason at all for a school district not teaching evolution to its students.



Which basic mechanism?

Genetic drift?
Mutation?
Natural selection?
Gene flow?
Punctuated equilibrium?

All of them. Evolution is the basic underlying unifying theory of biology. Not teaching it in biology is like not teaching basic atomic theory in chemistry.

quote:

You want them to talk about those moths on the tree?  That was proven false.

No. It wasn't. You've been reading creationist lies.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB601.html
quote:

How about the evolution of the horse?  Oh shit.  They got that one wrong too.

No. It is correct although the details are often simplified when shown to the public.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC216_2.html

quote:

Just how complete would you say our fossil record is? 

Very incomplete but we've discovered enough in the last 150 odd years to provide ample evidence of evolution and the fossil evidence supports the biochemical and morphological evidence for evolution. You can use all 3 to produce a nested hierarchy of evolution and all 3 trees match.

quote:

Are you going to use that oh-so-lovely "stages of man" poster?

Why not? It is a fairly accurate visual portrayal of our evolutionary history.

Looks to me like you've uncritically accepted a bunch of creationist claims without bothering to do enough research to find out that they were lying.

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/29/2011 7:14:02 AM   
Seatonstomb


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Status: offline 		Would it not be best and take into account the rights of the child if people were banned from involving children in any religious teachings or practices until they were old enough to give informed consent to such. They can easily be taught ethical standards, without involving the teachings of the various archons.

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RE: Is This a Sign of Trends to Come in America? - 1/29/2011 7:27:21 AM   
readyfordomina


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Status: offline 		without God there would be no ethical standards. Religion per se, that is organized religion does not have to be taught, but the idea of right and wrong come from God.

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