RE: 0bama0 and Muslim discord (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: 0bama0 and Muslim discord (2/1/2011 1:49:12 PM)

All Marxists are communists. If you want to get into pissing matches about political ideologies, it might be a good idea for you to have some sort of clue about how these terms are defined.




luckydawg -> RE: 0bama0 and Muslim discord (2/1/2011 1:55:48 PM)

actually you are the one who is confused Moon. No surprise about it either.

"Marxism is an economic and socio-political worldview that contains within it a political ideology for how to change and improve society by implementing socialism. Originally developed in the early to mid 19th century by two German émigrés living in Britain, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, Marxism is based upon a materialist interpretation of history. Taking the idea that social change occurs because of the struggle between different classes within society who are under contradiction one against the other, the Marxist analysis leads to the conclusion that capitalism, the currently dominant form of economic management, leads to the oppression of the proletariat, who not only make up the majority of the world's populace but who also spend their lives working for the benefit of the bourgeoisie, or the wealthy ruling class in society.

To correct this inequality between the bourgeoisie, who are the wealthy minority, and the proletariat, who are the poorer majority, Marxism advocates, and believes in the historical inevitability of, a proletarian revolution, when the proletariat take control of government, and then implement reforms to benefit their class, namely the confiscation of private property which is then taken under state control and run for the benefit of the people rather than for the interests of private profit. Such a system is socialism, although Marxists believe that eventually a socialist society would develop into an entirely classless system, which is known as communism in Marxist thought."


Social democracy is a political ideology that emerged in the late 19th and early 20th century. Many parties in the second half of the 19th century described themselves as social democratic, such as the British Social Democratic Federation, and the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party. In most cases these were revolutionary socialist or Marxist groups, who were not only seeking to introduce socialism, but also democracy in un-democratic countries. Many social democrats reject the idea that socialism can be accomplished only through class conflict, revolution and dictatorship of the proletariat.

The modern social democratic current came into being through a break within the socialist movement in the early 20th century, between two groups holding different views on the ideas of Karl Marx. Many related movements, including pacifism, anarchism, and syndicalism, arose at the same time (often by splitting from the main socialist movement, but also through the emergence of new theories) and had various, quite different objections to Marxism. The social democrats, who were the majority of socialists at this time, did not reject Marxism (and in fact claimed to uphold it), but wanted to reform it in certain ways and tone down their criticism of capitalism[citation needed]. They argued that socialism should be achieved through evolution rather than revolution. Such views were strongly opposed by the revolutionary socialists[citation needed], who argued that any attempt to reform capitalism was doomed to fail, because the reformists would be gradually corrupted and eventually turn into capitalists themselves[citation needed].





Moonhead -> RE: 0bama0 and Muslim discord (2/1/2011 2:08:02 PM)

Leaving aside the fact that those are historical notes, not current definitions, I'd be interested to hear how any of that has anything to do with the islamicist autocrats who run the Baathists?




Lucylastic -> RE: 0bama0 and Muslim discord (2/1/2011 2:08:06 PM)

Marxism, Ideology and socioeconomic theory developed by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. The fundamental ideology of communism, it holds that all people are entitled to enjoy the fruits of their labour but are prevented from doing so in a capitalist economic system, which divides society into two classes: nonowning workers and nonworking owners. Marx called the resulting situation “alienation,” and he said that when the workers repossessed the fruits of their labour, alienation would be overcome and class divisions would cease.
The exact definition of communism varies, and it is often mistakenly used interchangeably with socialism; however, Marxist theory contends that socialism is just a transitional stage on the way to communism. Marxist-Leninists and Leninists revised this theory by introducing the notion of a vanguard party to lead the proletarian revolution and to hold all political power after the revolution in a transitional stage between capitalism and socialism. Some communists, such as council communists and non-Marxist libertarian communists and anarcho-communists, oppose the idea of a vanguard party and transition stage and advocate for the construction of full communism to begin immediately upon the abolition of capitalism.




mnottertail -> RE: 0bama0 and Muslim discord (2/1/2011 2:15:35 PM)

That is not Marxism  (wiki got that wrong):

One  where is the materialistic history?
Two  where is the large scale cooperatives?
Three where is the layered class struggles?

These three things are fundamental  and necessary to a Marxist society.




Moonhead -> RE: 0bama0 and Muslim discord (2/1/2011 2:20:06 PM)

No mention of atheism either, which was quite a big thing in Marx's writings. That's why the couple of states that have claimed to be Marxists historically made a point of doing away with all of the churches, if memory serves.




luckydawg -> RE: 0bama0 and Muslim discord (2/1/2011 2:21:55 PM)

Well Moon, if you are too stupid to see how Socialists, who were a client state of the USSR, have anything to do with Socialism and/or hammer and sickles, I can't help you.


Though the fat bitch has come to your rescue so you can slink away now.




luckydawg -> RE: 0bama0 and Muslim discord (2/1/2011 2:23:56 PM)

trolls fixate on terms I haven't used, and pretend they are making a point.

Really kind of funny.




Moonhead -> RE: 0bama0 and Muslim discord (2/1/2011 2:28:56 PM)

If we're talking stupidity, anybody who thinks that the soviet union was a socialist state for longer than about half an hour in 1918 has a pretty fair claim to that one.




mnottertail -> RE: 0bama0 and Muslim discord (2/1/2011 2:29:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Marxism, Ideology and socioeconomic theory developed by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. The fundamental ideology of communism, it holds that all people are entitled to enjoy the fruits of their labour but are prevented from doing so in a capitalist economic system, which divides society into two classes: nonowning workers and nonworking owners. Marx called the resulting situation “alienation,” and he said that when the workers repossessed the fruits of their labour, alienation would be overcome and class divisions would cease.
The exact definition of communism varies, and it is often mistakenly used interchangeably with socialism; however, Marxist theory contends that socialism is just a transitional stage on the way to communism. Marxist-Leninists and Leninists revised this theory by introducing the notion of a vanguard party to lead the proletarian revolution and to hold all political power after the revolution in a transitional stage between capitalism and socialism. Some communists, such as council communists and non-Marxist libertarian communists and anarcho-communists, oppose the idea of a vanguard party and transition stage and advocate for the construction of full communism to begin immediately upon the abolition of capitalism.


and he talked about that as: value-surplus.... created from the sweat of those workers that would rule out any overclass, and a clergy, and would lead to huge collectivization (hint-hint) and there would be no 'government' because people would do what was right for the many (the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... Spock) spontaneously.

Nah, the rulers of these and other countries may say what is yours is all of ours for the benefit of the greater good, but they are simply robbing the people, and keeping it for themselves, with no redistributions,  and people who are shallow and without any grounding in real world issues call it socialism.





Moonhead -> RE: 0bama0 and Muslim discord (2/1/2011 2:32:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

trolls fixate on terms I haven't used, and pretend they are making a point.

Really kind of funny.

It's absolutely hilarious that you don't have a clue what the terms you're using mean, yes.




luckydawg -> RE: 0bama0 and Muslim discord (2/1/2011 2:37:37 PM)

That is real world Socialism, Mnot. Real World.

Its Not TWUE Socialism. TWUE socialism doesn't exist. (I already made this point).

To the TWUE believers The Unioun of Soviet Socialist Republics has nothing to do with Socialism (or they did for a half hour in 1918)

And yeah Heavy Industry And Oil Production, are Nationalised(big Collectives) in the Arab Socialist States. people get subsidised food and Medical Care(redistribution of wealth from the Nationalised industries)

as ususall Mnot doesn't a fucking Clue as to what he is talking about




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