RE: Thanks for the permission

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Icarys -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 7:36:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Something that I've been seeing on a few threads lately that I was thinking might make for a good conversation. Here are a couple of examples: "I allowed her to come and stay in Master's home." "The sub allows the Dom to punish." Am I the only Dominant on these boards that wonders where all of this allowance and permission is coming from on the submissive side of the kneel? It really doesn't work like that in our dynamic. In our case, it's more like this: I make decision X. I expect clip to submit to decision X. If clip doesn't submit to decision X, he is free to leave the dynamic. That's the bottom line for us. It's either submit or don't. There is no he 'gives Me permission' to do anything. Knowing the terms of what this dynamic entailed before he became collared to Me was when he had to decide if he could live with it or not. Anything that he can't live with now means that he needs to release himself and I find someone who will. So, let's talk about dynamics where the submissive is giving permission to the Dominant. Thoughts? That sounds a lot like "My way or the highway".

GreedyTop -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 7:36:41 AM)
as much as it pains me to say it, I think I agree with this point, Cu. of course, I am seriously medicated on OTC cold rememdies.. so I reserve the right to recant at any time.

Ishtarr -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 7:46:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain And how does negating the ability to say it articulate it negate the fact that it has (hypothetically) been said? You really think most dominants are going to keep going at a submissive who starts thrashing around and screaming in a totally different way once the dominant starts doing something odd, new, unusual or extremely intense? Some will, I have no doubt (I have heard stories), if they are willing to take a chance on breaking the law. But most are not going to. Therefore, "no safe words" means, really, "no formal, pre-agreed upon safe words." Dude... who said anything about most dominants doing this? Your premiss was that it simple does not happen. At least some people do this... therefore is DOES happen... Jezus Christ, this stuff isn't that difficult if you quite thinking in absolutes. Fact is that what you're describing above -a dominant ignoring a submissive trashing around and screaming while gagged- has happened to more than I can even count. And I've SEEN it happen even more than that. In fact, I've got plenty of scenes I engaged in where I wasn't gagged, but only tied up, and where I vocally begged, yelled, pleaded, screamed, threatened, cried and did a whole bunch of other stuff -up to the point of kicking the dominant once- ACTIVELY trying to get the dominant to stop. Even IF I had explicitly given prior consent in those events, legally it would have been irrelevant at that point, even though the dominant in question KNEW I was consenting because I wasn't going to press charges afterwards. Now none of those situations where non-consensual, because of our relationship dynamic... but in none of those situations, consent was explicitly vocally expressed at ANY point -not even in the beginning of the relationship- consent was a given because I was there... I never said anything about how common these types of situations are, I don't know, I don't have statistics... NEITHER DO YOU. I just know that they DO happen, and that you claiming they don't is an utter load of crap.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 7:53:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Something that I've been seeing on a few threads lately that I was thinking might make for a good conversation. Here are a couple of examples: "I allowed her to come and stay in Master's home." "The sub allows the Dom to punish." Am I the only Dominant on these boards that wonders where all of this allowance and permission is coming from on the submissive side of the kneel? Before I get started, let me remind you that you know I respect yours' and clip's relationship/dynamic. I am sure that clip submits because the desire to do so is within him and that his desire to serve you and be with you are prime motivating factors. That said... Remember the thread about male submissives? Remember that it was noted that while there is an abundance of male submissives, there are a handful of female Dominants in comparison. This allows the female dominant to be fairly choosy and to set the guidelines in a way that suits her more so than it allows the submissive to dictate things. While this is not to say that a male submissive will not have his wants and desires considered nor that they do not have at least some say in the structure of the dynamic, it is pretty clear that his voice is not as strong as hers. It does not work that way in an awful lot of male Dominant/female submissive dynamics. Yes, the Dominant male is the leader and yes, his may be the main voice in the structuring of the dynamic. But...there are oodles and oodles of male Dominants out there...witness the submissives, even long-standing members of collarme, who receive unsolicited email from "Dominants seeking..." every day. There are not that many unencumbered female submissives by comparison. And just like in female Dominant/male submissive dynamics, this allows female submissives to be more choosy and to have a stronger voice in the dynamic/relationship structure. Now....many male Dominants and, I am sure, even more female submissives will deny that. But, I point you to the threads you are thinking of when you posted this. I point them to many threads in which it can easily be seen that a female submissive's behavior, if bratty, is considered cute. How much of that do you see in female Dominant/male submissive dynamics? I point them to the many threads in which the changing nature of a female submissive's personality...not as submissive on some days as on others....are expected to be recognized and understood each and every time they occur. How much of that is allowed to go on in your dynamic, Lady Pact? In other female Dominant/male submissive dynamics? Look at your own words below: You make decison X. You EXPECT clip to submit to decision X. If clip does not want to submit to decision X, he is free to leave the dynamic. Now then, while there are a few that will admit to it (Me being one of them)....most male Dominants cannot, at least in the beginnings of a dynamic, afford to be that, for lack of a better word, cavalier about their dynamic. And many female submissives...though they will pay lip service to their own obedience and deny it...would not stand for a dynamic in which this was the rule for very long. I have seen it personally...and I have seen it in many conversations I have had with female submissives. Again...the ration comes into play. quote: It really doesn't work like that in our dynamic. In our case, it's more like this: I make decision X. I expect clip to submit to decision X. If clip doesn't submit to decision X, he is free to leave the dynamic. That's the bottom line for us. It's either submit or don't. There is no he 'gives Me permission' to do anything. Knowing the terms of what this dynamic entailed before he became collared to Me was when he had to decide if he could live with it or not. Anything that he can't live with now means that he needs to release himself and I find someone who will. So, let's talk about dynamics where the submissive is giving permission to the Dominant. Thoughts? Though it has not happened a lot, I can tell you that I have had more than one cmail from submissives who took exception to these statements in my profile..."If you are going to submit, then do so." "....(paraphrasing myself here) It is my way or the highway". Even though there are explanations with both statements that lessen the harshness of first reading/sound of the statements. I will go on to read the rest of the thread and add more later. Interesting post, LadyP...smiles

DarkSteven -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 7:54:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain Some will, I have no doubt (I have heard stories), if they are willing to take a chance on breaking the law. But most are not going to. Even a consensual spanking is against the law. Consent is critical with regard to rape vs consensual sex. But BDSM is technically assault, whether consent has been given or not. The law only comes into play if a sub presses charges. Perhaps your intent with the word "consent" means that she won't do that?

SomethingCatchy -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 8:05:34 AM)
quote: However: so many submissives that email me start out from what they BELIEVE is the submissive position, one as if it's going to be sustainable based on thin air and two that I have already chosen them Which is my main problem with online BDSM websites. I prefer meeting someone as an individual, a human being, no expectations beyond respect and friendliness. I'm completely put off by every single submissive man that contacts me with an overly submissive attitude right from the start. They don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of acting like they would in normal, every day life. I always get a laugh when I imagine them calling a strange woman on the street goddess, while staring at her shoes and licking his lips.

LaTigresse -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 8:16:27 AM)
CD you've touched on an issue that I've seen multitudes of times that often leads me to see a self identified s-type, hetro woman, as being the actual one in control of the relationship. And the self identified dominant male/master.....as doing a bang up job of submitting to her while chest thumping himself into believing he is the boss. From my perspective alone, a large percentage of M/f relationships are not really living the dynamic they are professing to live. Also from my perspective, I don't care. I see what I see and while I may not see their personal dynamic the way they would like me to see it, big picture, it doesn't really matter. It isn't MY relationship. For me, and me alone......it really will be as simple as my way or the highway. She has one choice, to submit or not. I think the biggest difference, again as I see it, is willingness or not, to accept the consequences. For myself, I would rather be alone than struggle to pretend I have something I really don't. I think there are an awful lot of people that would rather do a bit of, head in the sand, pretending to get them through. Again, that is their choice and if it really is working for them.......bravo! and none of my business. But in my mind, and probably on occasion outside of it, I will be tempted to call a spade a spade........as I see it. And chances are, I won't be seeing it the way they would prefer.

RCdc -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 8:30:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse For me, and me alone......it really will be as simple as my way or the highway. She has one choice, to submit or not. I think that people(in discussions like this) tend to get fixated on the fact that someone says 'submit only once and that's that' thing. Having authority doesn't suddenly make a person empty or misogynistic or unable to take other peoples suggestions on board. And saying ok, let's try it the way you suggest, doesn't mean someone's lost authority and submitting to their property.

LaTigresse -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 8:44:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse For me, and me alone......it really will be as simple as my way or the highway. She has one choice, to submit or not. I think that people(in discussions like this) tend to get fixated on the fact that someone says 'submit only once and that's that' thing. Having authority doesn't suddenly make a person empty or misogynistic or unable to take other peoples suggestions on board. And saying ok, let's try it the way you suggest, doesn't mean someone's lost authority and submitting to their property. Except.......that one choice, to submit or not, is made constantly. And I totally agree.........listening to suggestions is only a good thing. Here at work I completely acknowledge that, in reality, I am probably the least knowledgeable person in the facility when it comes to the work we do. The guys come to me with suggestions, and questions, all the time. It is my leadership to listen and decide how to proceed. On occasion the way we proceed is not one they like. Quite often I don't even particularly like it. BUT, that isn't what I am talking about. The crux of the matter is that I am the one making the final decision and that decision is the one that gets followed whether they like it or not. If they choose to defy, they they are placing their future employment on the line. So yes, as the leader, again........it is ultimately my way (working here) or the highway (working elsewhere).

Sundowner -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 8:52:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr a dominant ignoring a submissive trashing around and screaming while gagged- has happened to more than I can even count. And I've SEEN it happen even more than that. Sorry Ishtarr, I'm one of those pedantic sods who worry about the precision of language and admire its occasional beauty. So I can't help but note your awareness of stuff happening (in general) more often than you're able to count (you might mean more often than you've been bothered to count, unless you have serious maths problems) then contrasted with a suggestion that there's an even greater number which you've actually seen. For the avoidance of doubt, my noting on this occasion was not prompted by an instance of linguistic beauty. quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr In fact, I've got plenty of scenes I engaged in where I wasn't gagged, but only tied up, and where I vocally begged, yelled, pleaded, screamed, threatened, cried and did a whole bunch of other stuff -up to the point of kicking the dominant once- ACTIVELY trying to get the dominant to stop. My query is, I hope, less irritating than the above and is prompted by curiosity; the scenes you describe, were they hot and fulfilling because of your helplessness and because you had to endure something you (at the time) didn't want or were they just shit scenes which went wrong due to an inept dominant?

Chulain -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 9:03:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr Dude... who said anything about most dominants doing this? Your premiss was that it simple does not happen. Of course people can break the law to make someone do something they don't want to do. I've never said otherwise. quote: In fact, I've got plenty of scenes I engaged in where I wasn't gagged, but only tied up, and where I vocally begged, yelled, pleaded, screamed, threatened, cried and did a whole bunch of other stuff -up to the point of kicking the dominant once- ACTIVELY trying to get the dominant to stop. And what did you do when the scene ended? Did you tell the dominant "Look, pal, I wanted you to stop, I mean I really wanted you to stop. And you didn't stop. You are so fucked." If you didn't do that, or something similar, even if it was nothing more than to decide never to play with that dominant again, then you must have enjoyed it. quote: Even IF I had explicitly given prior consent in those events, legally it would have been irrelevant at that point, even though the dominant in question KNEW I was consenting because I wasn't going to press charges afterwards. Well now we're getting into the practicality of getting law enforcement to take a submissive's complaints seriously. That's a different issue. I don't know where you got the idea that I ever said breaking the law is out of the question (which is what you seem to be implying).

Sundowner -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 9:04:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc Having authority doesn't suddenly make a person empty or misogynistic or unable to take other peoples suggestions on board. And saying ok, let's try it the way you suggest, doesn't mean someone's lost authority and submitting to their property. What she said. I run my company effectively by asking others for their ideas and views and by recognising and accepting the frequent occasions when their input is better than mine. But there's never been the slightest doubt about who's in charge. Thank you dc - I had felt that in the D/S context the poor old dominant had pretty much always to make the decisions alone because that was what a submissive really wanted; I'll now try to carry the "consultation" principles more often into the D/S arena. Mind you, judging when that's appropriate and when it's a turn-off will still be hard at times. (See how one never stops learning different angles <hugs dc> )

Chulain -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 9:06:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sundowner I run my company effectively by asking others for their ideas and views and by recognising and accepting the frequent occasions when their input is better than mine. But there's never been the slightest doubt about who's in charge. Of course you don't run an interpersonal relationship, D/s or vanilla, the way you run a company.

Ishtarr -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 9:18:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sundowner quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr a dominant ignoring a submissive trashing around and screaming while gagged- has happened to more than I can even count. And I've SEEN it happen even more than that. Sorry Ishtarr, I'm one of those pedantic sods who worry about the precision of language and admire its occasional beauty. So I can't help but note your awareness of stuff happening (in general) more often than you're able to count (you might mean more often than you've been bothered to count, unless you have serious maths problems) then contrasted with a suggestion that there's an even greater number which you've actually seen. Dutch -which is my mother tongue- idioms that failed to get translated to English... It happened enough that I can't remember how many times it happened, and I've seen it more than it's happened to me. quote: ORIGINAL: Sundowner quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr In fact, I've got plenty of scenes I engaged in where I wasn't gagged, but only tied up, and where I vocally begged, yelled, pleaded, screamed, threatened, cried and did a whole bunch of other stuff -up to the point of kicking the dominant once- ACTIVELY trying to get the dominant to stop. My query is, I hope, less irritating than the above and is prompted by curiosity; the scenes you describe, were they hot and fulfilling because of your helplessness and because you had to endure something you (at the time) didn't want or were they just shit scenes which went wrong due to an inept dominant? Neither. The ones that happened with the man I was previously with where punishments for bad behavior that where intended for me to not enjoy. He wasn't a sadist, and with him this only happened a handful of times because he didn't enjoy doing it. He'd keep going until I was so spend that I could no longer beg him to stop. With the man before that... well he could just be an evil sadistic sadist at times, and the fact that I didn't enjoy it made him enjoy it even more. Both men where well aware of what they where doing, and off the fact that I didn't enjoy being hurt. Both didn't care for their own reasons, and within each respective relationship dynamic, suffering pain I wouldn't have chosen to suffer, whenever they choose to inflict it on me, was a price that was expected from me in return for being allowed to be in the relationship. If I could go back, I'd do none of them again, and would do everything I could to avoid them, yet at the same time I don't regret what happened or feel resentment over it... it was explicitly their right to choose to do this to me within the terms of the relationship as laid out by them. I was aware of that before I entered into them. I'm currently in a totally different relationship dynamic, and don't think I'll ever again engage in a relationship where a man will have that kind of authority over me.

Ishtarr -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 9:22:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain And what did you do when the scene ended? Did you tell the dominant "Look, pal, I wanted you to stop, I mean I really wanted you to stop. And you didn't stop. You are so fucked." If you didn't do that, or something similar, even if it was nothing more than to decide never to play with that dominant again, then you must have enjoyed it. I enjoyed it about as much as I enjoy cleaning up pee from the toilet and bathroom floor when a guy has yet again failed to aim properly... yet neither that nor those beatings will cause me to leave a relationship if I value the relationship more than I hate the acts I need to endure in order to stay in that relationship... That doesn't mean I enjoy cleaning up pee... Nor does it mean that I enjoy being beaten...

KnightofMists -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 9:32:19 AM)
There seems to be to many "I"s in somes relationship!... Might be better if people used "We" alittle more. ... if the ship runs aground... WE are affect not just I.

Chulain -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 9:37:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr That doesn't mean I enjoy cleaning up pee... If you want a clean bathroom, you have to clean up the pee. If you're OK with a pee-ridden bathroom, then you don't have to clean up the pee. quote: Nor does it mean that I enjoy being beaten... Show me the rule which states you have to be beaten whether you like it or not. I'll wait. quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists There seems to be to many "I"s in somes relationship!... Might be better if people used "We" alittle more. If that means what I think it means, I agree. Every healthy relationship, D/s or vanilla, is a voluntary partnership. As someone's sig says, without a submissive willing to submit, there's no one for a dominant to dominate (and vice versa). It goes without saying (although someone will say it) that not all relationships are healthy.

Ishtarr -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 9:47:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr That doesn't mean I enjoy cleaning up pee... If you want a clean bathroom, you have to clean up the pee. If you're OK with a pee-ridden bathroom, then you don't have to clean up the pee. quote: Nor does it mean that I enjoy being beaten... Show me the rule which states you have to be beaten whether you like it or not. I'll wait. Same thing for both scenarios: if I had refused the beating, or cleaning the bathroom, I would have been kicked out. I never said that I had to from a legal point of view... in fact, I've made it VERY clear multiple time that it was expect of me IF I wanted to remain in the relationship. Like I said MULTIPLE TIMES now: people do things in relationship they hate because they want to stay in the relationship... that does NOT make them enjoy doing the things they hate... Edited to add: You know what... seeing that you're obviously very deliberately being this ignorant about things, and seeing that other board members are probably annoyed at these constant interruptions, I'll refrain from replying to you from now on out of respect for them... my apologies everybody for letting things get this far with such an obvious troll....

IceDemeter -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 9:50:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain [Of course you don't run an interpersonal relationship, D/s or vanilla, the way you run a company. Really? Why not? We do, and know many others who do so as well. We strive for profitability (the ability to support ourselves in the manner we like). We recognize that happy employees are more productive, so work together to maintain that. We have a recognized authority structure. Our "end product" is our relationship, and we both work towards making that product useful both to ourselves and our communities. Is this really so different from a service-oriented business? There are times where looking at it as a company is extremely beneficial - it allows us to look at things impersonally when required so that we can see a "correction" as being a tool aimed toward the greater good of the relationship instead of being an attack on the person. The "my way or the highway" of the employment area is really no different than every relationship --- all parties at all times have the ability to walk away and find another job or dynamic. However, as long as their basic needs are being met, they feel happy and productive overall, and they are in agreement as to where they are heading --- well, most of us stay. Is this implicit consent? I suppose it is. Do I "allow" my partner to make the decisions? Yes - the same way and for the same reasons that I "allow" my boss to make the decisions at my place of employment. Both my partner and my boss are better leaders than I am, have a proven track-record of good decisions, have shown success in determining beneficial goals and reaching them, and have proven that they recognize my strengths and can use them to reach our goals. I don't know - I guess, to me, it seems that a relationship and a business can both work successfully the same way and that the semantics of "allow" would also apply in the same way.

LadyPact -> RE: Thanks for the permission (1/31/2011 9:51:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys That sounds a lot like "My way or the highway". Since this one is short, I'll take the opportunity to first thank everyone for the participation in the thread. There has been some very interesting discussion here. OK. Let's talk about 'My way or the highway'. I don't really think My way or the highway is either necessarily a bad thing and I don't believe it's terribly uncommon. In a certain way, I don't even think it's just for those of us who are in authority based dynamics. It might get stretched to 'our way or the highway' in those cases, but still the same concept. I think there are some folks out there who have certain agreements in their relationships that, if one partner breaks them, it's over. An instance of cheating in a monogamous relationship can be looked at in the same way. Of course, many folks may not know how they will handle it unless it actually does happen to them. Some folks may forgive their partner and try to salvage the relationship. Others will say the relationship is destroyed to them. The latter is My way or the highway, too. Depending on how you look at it, the same premise can be used from the submissive side. How many submissives out there have an area that is a hard limit? What happens in some cases where the D breaks that hard limit? They walk. That's a version of My way or the highway, too. So, it's really not that much of a stretch to say an area of My way or the highway happens to be about obedience.

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