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Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in roma... - 1/31/2011 9:24:52 AM

TotallyDude

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So I've been thinking about this because of a thread on a totally different board where I'm active, in which a chick who is pretty unpopular made a post and was immediately greeted with a refrain of "Kill yourself lol" type one-liners. Now I'm as crass as the next dude but "Kill yourself" is one thing I'd never say to anybody because at the end of the day you gotta keep in mind we're all real flesh and blood dudes. This girl happened to be (by her own account anyway) suicidal and she was talking about some terrible thing she'd just done to her boyfriend.

So since I'm of a philosophical turn of mind by nature I generalized out the particulars and started asking myself "Does a suicidal person have any business being in a relationship anyway?" Assume we're not talking about someone who threatens suicide to look for attention, which is gross, but someone who has real strong suicidal impulses and urges. In other words this hypothetical person, whatever faults they may have, does have this self-destructive impulse in them that most of us will feel pity for no matter what we think of them as a person.

On the one hand, having suicidal urges doesn't make someone less of a human being. It doesn't mean they're not entitled to find whatever happiness they can on this planet for as long as they're around. On the other hand, can anybody who doesn't have recurring suicidal impulses really understand what it's like to have them or how great the risk really is for people who do? The prospective partner can listen all they want, read all they want, but will they ever be able to understand what they're getting themselves into?

Is it possible for a clinically depressed person with suicidal impulses to enter into a truly risk aware relationship?

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 9:33:16 AM

Aylee

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I would have to say, "no." And not as an ethical judgment. Suicidally depressed people are rarely able to look outside themselves. While you are that focused on yourself I am having a hard time seeing how you could even notice a person to have a relationship with.

I could be wrong on this. But it seems that there would be no energy to focusing on finding and entering a relationship.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 9:36:48 AM

DarkSteven

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In my opinion, a suicidal person needs all the ties to people that he or she can get. Else the isolation could cause an attempt.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 9:39:46 AM

angelikaJ

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I think it depends on the person and the illness involved.
I have an acquaintance who has a form of bi-polar disorder and he is suicidal from time to time. It is a feature of the depressive side of his illness when his medication needs an adjustment. It just is what it is through no fault of his own.
He is involved in a long term relationship.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 9:59:47 AM

TotallyDude

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quote:

I have an acquaintance who has a form of bi-polar disorder and he is suicidal from time to time. It is a feature of the depressive side of his illness when his medication needs an adjustment. It just is what it is through no fault of his own.
He is involved in a long term relationship.

Hmm. I wish your friend the best, I really do. Everybody deserves whatever slice of happiness they can carve off in this valley of ashes and tears. BUT I wonder whether his partner can ever really be fully aware of the risks involved in loving someone who is suicidal. When you think of all the people with everything going for them, who have the means and resources to get all the best help possible and who take advantage of this help and still come to a tragic end it just makes me wonder whether someone who doesn't share the condition can ever really understand it.

I mean kinky people talk about "risk awareness" and I like the concept and I just wonder whether there is any such thing as real "risk awareness" in a relationship in which one partner is a suicidal depressive.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 10:01:45 AM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

In my opinion, a suicidal person needs all the ties to people that he or she can get. Else the isolation could cause an attempt.

I do not disagree with this, and my answer was not intended to suggest that they are not allowed to.

I was questioning the actual logistics of it. A suicidal person tends to be inner-focused. Entering into a relationship requires an outer-focus.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

I think it depends on the person and the illness involved.
I have an acquaintance who has a form of bi-polar disorder and he is suicidal from time to time. It is a feature of the depressive side of his illness when his medication needs an adjustment. It just is what it is through no fault of his own.
He is involved in a long term relationship.

My answer was only in regards to entering into a relationship while suicidally depressed. I do know that lots of people have depression and are in relationships or become suicidal while in a relationship.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 10:07:59 AM

windchymes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

I was questioning the actual logistics of it. A suicidal person tends to be inner-focused. Entering into a relationship requires an outer-focus.

This was my thought. It really takes a professional to determine if they're truly suidical, having suicidal ideations, or just bucking for attention. And THEN, are they bucking for attention because they're immature and spoiled or are they crying for help because they truly have psychological issues?

Anything to do with suicide is much better left to the pros.

< Message edited by windchymes -- 1/31/2011 10:10:42 AM >

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 10:23:52 AM

popeye1250

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Only if she'll make me the beneficiary of her life insurance policy.
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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 10:28:02 AM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Only if she'll make me the beneficiary of her life insurance policy.
"Hey honey, that bag of guns needs cleaning."

I thought that life-insurance did not pay in cases of suicide.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 10:31:40 AM

LaTigresse

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The question is really too vague to answer properly.

For me there would be questions like "Is this a new development?" "Did something unusual in their life trigger it?" "Are they attempting to get help?"

There really are too many variables to give a yes or no answer.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 10:36:57 AM

TotallyDude

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quote:

The question is really too vague to answer properly.

For me there would be questions like "Is this a new development?" "Did something unusual in their life trigger it?" "Are they attempting to get help?"

There really are too many variables to give a yes or no answer.

Yeah that's a fair cop. What I didn't get across in my post I guess was that I'm thinking of someone who has had pronounced suicidal impulses over a significant period of time. It isn't just a phase, it's impulses that recur over and over throughout a duration of years. There are more people out there like this than most of us seem to realize and lots of people who won't cop to it.

But there are people who know in their heart of hearts that, one way or another, the way they're checking out is going to be by their own hand. Is there any way for someone like that to make a partner sufficiently aware of what it really means to be a "high risk" for self-destructive behavior that it's moral for them to enter into a longterm relationship?

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 10:38:50 AM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TotallyDude

Yeah that's a fair cop. What I didn't get across in my post I guess was that I'm thinking of someone who has had pronounced suicidal impulses over a significant period of time. It isn't just a phase, it's impulses that recur over and over throughout a duration of years. There are more people out there like this than most of us seem to realize and lots of people who won't cop to it.

But there are people who know in their heart of hearts that, one way or another, the way they're checking out is going to be by their own hand. Is there any way for someone like that to make a partner sufficiently aware of what it really means to be a "high risk" for self-destructive behavior that it's moral for them to enter into a longterm relationship?

Better living through chemistry?

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 10:42:21 AM

LaTigresse

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It would be tough for me because I've dealt with it too much in my life already. I give my son-in-law A LOT of kudos for putting up with my daughter through a lot of stuff I would have tossed in the towel. It is obvious he loves her more than her issues drive him crazy.

Again, what would make a difference for me is their desire to overcome........or lack thereof. If they cannot or will not, put forth the effort.....then why should I?

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 10:56:21 AM

LadyPact

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To Me, this seems fairly similar to a thread that is in the Ask A Mistress section just now about mental illness. I don't know if you've read or participated in that thread, but it might interest you, OP. I'm actually going to give the same answer here as I did there. The question is too broad for Me to give a definitive answer.

Both of these threads very much want Me to say that a page from Al-Anon fits in these categories. For those who don't know, Al-Anon is a support organization for family members and loved ones of Alcoholics. That can be any situation from active drinking to somebody who has had long term sobriety. One of the great parts of the support system is that participants work with the premise of what they can take and then not taking anymore. It's understood that part of "how much" is going to be different for everybody and there is nothing wrong with saying a person has reached the point of having to think about self-preservation. As individuals, we have different standards of when enough is enough.

In asking if it's moral, I can't say that it's immoral. Would I do it? I couldn't say. Not from either side.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 11:13:14 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TotallyDude
Is it possible for a clinically depressed person with suicidal impulses to enter into a truly risk aware relationship?

Possible? Sure. A good idea? No, not in my opinion. I've been fighting a severe depression for over a year now, and the last several months it's gotten to a point where I won't even consider getting involved with anyone. I'm just not going to do that to someone, drag someone into that kind of an emotional and spiritual cesspool. Others in similar circumstances may make different choices for their own reasons, but I'm not going to fuck up someone else's life by letting the poison that pervades mine seep into theirs.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 11:17:02 AM

Termyn8or

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I'm crazy, so give me a PO box # or somewhere to send the proverial grain of salt.

I've dealt with three very suicidal people, and two of them are still alive. The other, I think I kept them going for some time, but that one had some pretty compelling reasons, and didn't call - that last time. I might as well bring up that case.

He had Huntington's, his Mother had died restrained to a hospital bed, convulsing uncontrollably. But that wasn't why he did it. He knew he had the disease and was generally in good spirits. However he remembered her actions in earlier stages of the disease. Huntington's affects the brain, and for a time she was still lucid and functional, but simply didn't give a shit about anything. I can't really be sure it was a manifestation of the disease, but it was in his opinion. He had been planning suicide for a long time; "When I get to that point......." .

I am one of the most stoic people on the planet, but his self inflicted demise HURT me. I tried, this ws my friend. In other cases I was able to fight it, and make people realize a few things. Not this time. This is a real disease with no viable cure, or even very successful management. He said that she got tremors, and drinking actually helped - in the short term of course. Even not drinking his Mother would smash cars and simply not care. She had become a danger to society, he told me. He said he did not want to be like that, that he didn't want to hurt people. That he was going to "do it" someday, when he got to a certain point. He also said that he could feel the tremors.

How the hell do you fight that ? He had already put up a noose and did the balancing act in attempts to control the tremors more than once. To actually put his life on the line, to die if he lost self control. One false move so to speak. All this was going on before I even met him.

Now to address the actual question - requires this question : Did he have the right to befriend anyone ? Just for the sake of argument, equate the suicidal tendency with a terminal disease. While many prefer to die alone, does that mean they should live the end of their life alone ? I mean the last few months or years. Should they be placed in something like a leper colony ? Hang around waiting for the Reverend to make some special koolaid ?

I think not. I don't think it would be fair, or right. Everybody dies, it's just a matter of when. Then comes the question of say, an older Man falling in love with a younger Woman. He can generally assume that he will die first, which would hurt her. I'm not talking about a gold digger and a rich guy. I mean a real relatioship. Is it fair to her ?

No, it is not. But that is life. Life isn't fair, and never will be. But if we refuse to live it, we might as well be dead anyway. And that razor cuts alot deeper than the obviuos. Without an actual terminal illness, there is still the subject of deep depression.

They know alot less about depression than they think. I believe that treating it chemically should be the absolute last resort. "An imbalance in the brain" they say. Well an imbalance in the brain can be caused by one's surroundings, and/or their perception thereof. Without some sort of disease and for sure a limited future, it is all in the mind. What put it there ? I doubt it was a lack of protien.

I don't know what more to say really, but isolation is bad for almost anyone. Logically most depressed or suicidal people lack the sense of self worth. Else why would they destroy something of value ? If you're involved with someone suicidal, you MAKE IT CLEAR that they have worth, at least to you. Hopefully that's enough. But if you're not there, the option doesn't exist.

There are always more questions than answers. Why is she unpopular ? Was she spoiled rotten as a kid ? There are many questions to be answered before anything can be done. But I will say now - isolation is not the answer.

T^T

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 11:17:09 AM

TotallyDude

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quote:

Both of these threads very much want Me to say that a page from Al-Anon fits in these categories. For those who don't know, Al-Anon is a support organization for family members and loved ones of Alcoholics. That can be any situation from active drinking to somebody who has had long term sobriety. One of the great parts of the support system is that participants work with the premise of what they can take and then not taking anymore. It's understood that part of "how much" is going to be different for everybody and there is nothing wrong with saying a person has reached the point of having to think about self-preservation. As individuals, we have different standards of when enough is enough.

Ya I read that thread and my heart bled a little for that little duder. And I like Your response about Al Anon that you've posted here. But at the same time I think being suicidal throws an additional landmine into the equation. If someone has to walk away from a drunk and they start drinking again then yeah, they will very likely feel crushing, black waves of guilt and despair. But if someone walks away from a person with suicidal impulses and shortly thereafter they easy-way-out themselves...Christ. I can't imagine.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 11:19:10 AM

TotallyDude

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quote:

Possible? Sure. A good idea? No, not in my opinion. I've been fighting a severe depression for over a year now, and the last several months it's gotten to a point where I won't even consider getting involved with anyone. I'm just not going to do that to someone, drag someone into that kind of an emotional and spiritual cesspool. Others in similar circumstances may make different choices for their own reasons, but I'm not going to fuck up someone else's life by letting the poison that pervades mine seep into theirs.

It takes a serious gut check to be able to say "I'll go through this alone before I drag somebody else down with me." The Duder salutes you for that one. I'd like to think that if I were in the same position that's the route I'd go too. I really wanna know what people think about my question, but in my gut the answer I keep coming up with is "No way would it be fair to put somebody through that."

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 11:29:18 AM

lizi

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This is a fast answer because I've only got a little time right now but I may feel like coming back later....no, I wouldn't put anyone through it if I didnt have to. I've been suicidal, there's no way I'd drag anyone else down into that hell if I were at a time when I didn't have a relationship. If I had one already what's happened to me in the past is that it gives me a focus to get better. I dont particularly feel like doing anything for myself at times like that but knowing that the others who love me are out there it gives me a reason to hang in there till things hopefully get better. When I don't care for myself I still can care for others. It's kind of weird but effective.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 11:45:28 AM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I thought that life-insurance did not pay in cases of suicide.

I got a life insurance policy thru work. When I signed it, I was informed it wouldn't pay out for suicide for the first 2 years of the policy. Considering the cyclical nature of depression, that's pretty clever. They wouldn't have anyone buying the policy just to off themselves.

ETA:

As has been said above, depressed people need all the support they can get. Like Lizi said above, if a deprressed person has to worry about the reaction of their self murder on someone else, it might give them pause.

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 1/31/2011 11:54:40 AM >

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