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DelightMachine -> RE: Torture "widespread" (5/3/2006 10:00:03 PM)
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I can't respond to everything in your post, partly because it's late, but I can respond to a few things pretty easily right now: The 100,000-deaths figure has been controversial ever since it was put out. It was one study done by extrapolating from a sample of people asked if they knew of deaths, and then how many deaths. Personally, I think the study is ridiculous, but I can't cite all the reasons immediately.
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ORIGINAL: MsMacComb
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/20352
Without my going and counting bodies this is one source. About 2 years ago a group of international doctors stated the same thing. Seeing as how BushCo has lied about every single thing he's stateed since getting into office (prove me wrong on any major issue) anyone that believes his sources is being naive. Iraqbodycount.com freely admits that the numbers they use are not anything other than what was reported via morgues. Many Muslims beleive that the body should go into the ground immediatly, many have no money for professional funerals and services so they plant them themselves.
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Prove how many lives we saved in WWII by using nukes.
It's standard history. Look anywhere beyond left-wing sources and you'll find it's the consensus view. American deaths alone were estimated at nearly a million and, surprise surprise, you don't just BONK Mr. Japanese Terrorist State in the head without killing many civilians with other types of bombs.
Wikipedia has an interesting article on it. Here's part of it (boldface added):
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A study done for Secretary of War Henry Stimson's staff by William Shockley estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7–4 million American casualties, including 400,000–800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. [SNIP] ...
Nearly 500,000 Purple Heart medals were manufactured in anticipation of the casualties resulting from the invasion of Japan. As of 2005, all the American military casualties of the following sixty years—including the Korean and Vietnam Wars—have not exhausted that stockpile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall#Estimated_casualties_for_Downfall
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And again, one would think you would been able to grasp that I was referring to countries other than 3rd world as far as media. No one counts/counted the rags published daily by the likes of Hitler, Mussolini, Kim Jong-il etc.
Except when you imply that the U.S. is as bad as or worse than any other regime. Sorry I wasn't able to read the reservations you have about that in your own mind. Perhaps if you'd actually put those caveats in your post my poor mind would have been able to grasp it.
You say "no one counts" these other regimes. But of course the posts in this very thread mention Arabs who think the U.S. has been as bad as Saddam and other posts on this thread have indicated that the U.S. has been perceived as being as bad as other, worse regimes. Some idiot or ignorant Europeans actually think that. Some idiot or ignorant Asians also think that. Some people posting on this thread seemed to think that. When Americans talk the same way, it reinforces that kind of thinking. Your loose talk reinforces it.
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Must I explain every little thing to you? There exists in conversation things known as "concepts, ideas, examples" which most people can grasp in the larger sense without wanting proof of every single detail or comparing to the "media" in communist countries.
Must I explain every little thing to you? There exists in conversation a thing known as exaggeration. You were guilty of it.
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Prove that the US prevented more human rights abuses in the past than anyone else.
Without us, Hitler's regime would either have been undefeated in World War II, leading to further killing on a scale of millions, or the Soviet Union would have dominated Europe, leading to the same thing. Without the United States, Imperial Japan would have been undefeated as well. Those were the deadliest, bloodiest regimes in world history with the possible exception of the regimes of the Mongol hordes about 800 years ago.
The United States has not promoted democracy and human rights in every single place and at all times around the world, but we've been more effective at it than any other country. By opposing the Soviet Union, for instance, we eventually forced its rulers to realize that they received no benefit from spending so much on their military. By showing the world that a free, capitalist country could give its citizens so many benefits, we provided an example that others followed. The people in countries behind the Iron Curtain constantly said they wanted to be "normal" countries. They defined normal by the example set by the United States and Europe and Japan, and it was the U.S. that supported Europe and Japan just after World War II, allowing them to be examples to others.
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Prove that in the war on terror we are fighting horrible regimes. The war on terror is with Al-Quida who is not really a regime at this moment, nor has ever had a country.
We are also fighting regimes that support terrorists, and those happen to be some of the worst in the world in terms of human rights violations. Afghanistan under the Taliban supported Al Qaeda. Iraq had proven ties to terrorists and Iran has ties to various terrorist groups -- it set up some in Lebanon, for instance. The problem of Islamofascist terrorism doesn't end if Al Qaeda ends, but it's greatly lessened if we stop some regimes from ending their support for terrorism. The War on Terrorism has always been about fighting both terrorists, their support groups and the regimes that support terrorists.
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Prove that there were 8 million deaths during the Holocaust.
If you are so ignorant as to post on a public message board about American crimes compared to the rest of the world and not know about how many were killed in the Holocaust, then you have some work to do. Eight million is the standard (if rough) figure and you can look it up with any reputable source. Here is just one source, and it repeats what you'll find elsewhere:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Death_toll
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Prove that my comments are anti-american.
When you ignore anything good about America and exaggerate the bad, you're obviously anti-American. You could disprove this by not ignoring the good and not exaggerating the bad.
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