RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/6/2011 10:35:10 AM

luckydawg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

The West and Islam have totally incompatible values. It's incomprehensible to me that others are unable to see that clearly; perhaps the wool is slowly being lifted from the eyes of some. Multiculturalism has failed. David Cameron of the UK, speaking (primarily) of Muslim groups:

"Let's properly judge these organisations: Do they believe in universal human rights - including for women and people of other faiths? Do they believe in equality of all before the law? Do they believe in democracy and the right of people to elect their own government? Do they encourage integration or separatism?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994

The current turmoil in Egypt, Tunisia and other places in the Muslim world is about democracy, tyranny, jobs, freedom and justice. So the media tells us. So the demands of the brave protesters tell us.

I am unable to understand how any of these demands are "incompatible" with the values we Westerners like to think we hold dear. Perhaps the OP will be kind enough to lift the wool from my eyes .......

Edited using knitting needles

Why would you think this thread has anything at all to do with the current turmoil in the Mideast?

You didn't even glance at the article did you?

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/6/2011 10:53:33 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Unlike you, Cameron can distinguish between Islam in general and extremism. The quote below can be found in your link.

"We need to be clear: Islamist extremism and Islam are not the same thing," he said.

...and we cannot let that slide. There are extremists everywhere but they all do not demonstrate their extremism in the same way. Yes, all religions would ideally put in place a theocracy but...the west hasn't, Islam has.

We cannot escape where we are and what we see in the cultures and other religious behavior. Example: Islam...

Currently women are complete second class citizens in almost every way. That is not extremism...that's normal. Women and most men are not and cannot be in govt. at all, again, can't own anything or contract, are religiously (legally) subservient to men and that is...normal life. This is all 'normal' life in Islamic countries...not extremism. Still stoning only women to death for adultery and hanging teens for a violation of their chastity. That is normal, again...not extremism.

Families celebrate the death of a child if they killed jews too. More extremism. We in the west cannot even fathom that and for good reason.

Kinkroids...that is not terrorist extremism, it is theocratic normalcy and we rightly so, see it as religious extremism.

Since the Renaissance, the west and Christians have separated our gods from our govt. and placed (or try to) the person above our religious beliefs and culture.

As had been said and is vitally important...humans have the intelligence not to be...slave to any culture. Islam still is.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/6/2011 10:57:31 AM >

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/6/2011 3:36:07 PM

ashjor911

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Dear MrRodgers
I am not getting what is your point there. But let me just tell you this, & please read it with an open heart, I am only correcting you nothing more.
Think of stoning men & women for adultery as a cleaning punishment to let them pass into heaven without a sin.
& yes Islam forbid gay & lesbians but what religion will accept that?
I have been 26 or 27 years old I was masturbating from the time I know how to do it, I did it more that anybody
Still it’s not forbidden but it can only used for I cannot hold it any longer.
Even (hanging) if forbidden= it cannot be done in the name of Islam some do it in the name of Islam that is wrong & it reflect on them.
Families celebrate the death of a warrior that has been killed in a (holy war = a war that defend our land & our beliefs) & right now we are only in war with Israelis not Jews, we don’t hate Jews we hate Israelis that is it.
I know that there is a few of Jews in the US who are against Israelis.
And please tell me what the term (govt) is?
Have a great Sunday all.
M

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/6/2011 3:47:34 PM

BonesFromAsh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911
Think of stoning men & women for adultery as a cleaning punishment to let them pass into heaven without a sin.

Wow.

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/6/2011 3:49:33 PM

luckydawg

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another proud hater....

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/6/2011 3:57:09 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

...and we cannot let that slide. There are extremists everywhere but they all do not demonstrate their extremism in the same way. Yes, all religions would ideally put in place a theocracy but...the west hasn't, Islam has.

We cannot escape where we are and what we see in the cultures and other religious behavior. Example: Islam...

Currently women are complete second class citizens in almost every way. That is not extremism...that's normal. Women and most men are not and cannot be in govt. at all, again, can't own anything or contract, are religiously (legally) subservient to men and that is...normal life. This is all 'normal' life in Islamic countries...not extremism. Still stoning only women to death for adultery and hanging teens for a violation of their chastity. That is normal, again...not extremism.

Families celebrate the death of a child if they killed jews too. More extremism. We in the west cannot even fathom that and for good reason.

Kinkroids...that is not terrorist extremism, it is theocratic normalcy and we rightly so, see it as religious extremism.

Since the Renaissance, the west and Christians have separated our gods from our govt. and placed (or try to) the person above our religious beliefs and culture.

As had been said and is vitally important...humans have the intelligence not to be...slave to any culture. Islam still is.

Not another one who lumps all Muslims in the same boat. Dont they teach you anything at school ?

It is disturbing that so many are willing to place every single Muslim, or Islamic state, as identical. Get a grip, they are not all the same. What annoys me is that none of you that claim they are, are willing to do a jot of research on the subject.

I dont claim all Muslims are wonderful, but I dont claim they are all terrorists or religious extremists either. Many of you do, and I am guessing few of you have ever sat down and had a conversation on the subject with moderate Muslims.

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/6/2011 5:30:05 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

Currently women are complete second class citizens in almost every way. That is not extremism...that's normal. Women and most men are not and cannot be in govt. at all, again, can't own anything or contract, are religiously (legally) subservient to men and that is...normal life. This is all 'normal' life in Islamic countries...not extremism. Still stoning only women to death for adultery and hanging teens for a violation of their chastity. That is normal, again...not extremism.

Let's not get too full of ourselves. The status of women in the West is leaps and bounds ahead of women in Muslim cultures. But it is a long way short of full equality. And if you go back a century, you will find that women didn't have the vote in many Western countries. Still don't in some Swiss cantons. The status of women in many versions of Christianity still leaves a lot to be desired. Violence against women occurs in every Western country on a daily basis.

So it's a welcome but relatively recent phenomenon.

quote:

Families celebrate the death of a child if they killed jews too. More extremism. We in the west cannot even fathom that and for good reason.

This is a monstrous claim. As I understand it, Muslims believe (falsely IMHO) that 'martyrs' go to Paradise. Precisely the same belief was drummed into me at Catholic school about Catholic 'martyrs'. Is this an attempt to de-humanise the entire one and a half billion Muslims in the world?

Hate thrives on ignorance. Please learn a bit about other people beliefs/cultures before making such claims.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/6/2011 5:39:23 PM >

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/6/2011 5:48:51 PM

luckydawg

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It is interesting that Tweak demands all recent history and events regarding Israel and Palestine must be ignored.

But in other things, history from hundreds (thousands)of year ago, is relevant.

Is she a hypocrite or an anti semite?

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/6/2011 5:50:51 PM

luckydawg

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Saint Angelus (Italian: Sant'Angelo) (1185–1220), a saint and martyr from the Holy Land, was born in Jerusalem to a Jewish family. His mother, however, converted to Christianity, and Angelus, along with his twin brother, John, were baptised when she converted.[1]

His parents died while he was young, and he and his twin brother entered the Carmelite Order at the age of eighteen. They already spoke Greek, Latin, and Hebrew.[1]

Around his twenty-sixth year, Angelus was ordained in Jerusalem, and he traveled through Palestine. Various miraculous cures were attributed to him. His acta states that he sought to avoid fame, and when he was becoming known for his miracles, he withdrew from society to a hermitage. He remained a hermit on Mount Carmel until he was instructed[2] to leave for Italy to preach against Albigensians, Bulgars, and patarini.[1]

He went to Sicily, and his fame as a miracle-worker caused crowds to come to him.

He wanted to convert a Cathar knight named Berenger (Berengarius). Catholic tradition states that Berenger was living in incest and that Angelus convinced the knight's companion to leave Berenger.[1] Berenger became enraged and killed or had him killed in front of the Church of SS. Filippo e Giacomo in Licata. He died of his wounds four days after the attack, and according to Catholic tradition, asked for his assassin to be pardoned.[1] He was buried at SS. Filippo e Giacomo.[1]

Obviously the same as a suicide bomber targeting children.

At least in the twisted world of the anti semetic left.

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/6/2011 6:01:44 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

It's most likely just Cameron finally finding something he can use to distinguish himself from Blair. The oaf's got a bit carried away, it seems.

I don't know, Moony. The Tories are being attacked in the Daily Mail and there's a general hostility amongst the farther right. Cameron did his speech on the day that the English Defence League did their big march.

One thing that makes me edgy about this government is that regardless of its stated reasons, it has *in effect* pursued a neo-liberal economic policy so far. Thatcherism, though, combined neoliberalism in the economic sphere with neoconservatism in the political sphere. I never could see how the neoliberal plank could work, for any length of time, without the neoconservative plank to support it.

And I think that might well be leading Tories' thinking, now. We're in for hard times economically and, usually, a scapegoat for the nation's ills is required for such times. For once, the scapegoat has been looking uncomfortably like it's at the top of society - expenses-fiddling MPs, fatcat bankers, and of course, the government itself. I just wonder if Cameron's sowing the seeds. The scapegoat just *must* be located in its "proper" place - at the bottom of society.

Well, just a fear at present, nothing more. We'll see.

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/6/2011 6:14:47 PM

MrRodgers

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What part of what is going on now on the street as it were in Islam...did I miss ? I clarify the separation of the two religions with the Renaissance in that Christianity began the struggle to separate church and state. Islam obviously and violently so...has not.

Islam does in fact hate the Jews, as none are even allowed to communicate travel to or even in country. Peace [sic] missions must be on neutral ground. This hate springs from Islam's belief in Zionism and all its attendant if imaginary evils. I can imagine the posts already, yes the threat...of Zionism.

I have studied and seen more than enough of recent and 21st century Islam to have a right to feel that in the debate of Islam vs the west, theirs is still in far too many ways...a primitive culture.

So again, the west (Christianity) has not remained, and is no longer...slave to their historical culture. I will not repeat the obvious differences today...that Islam is.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/6/2011 6:23:12 PM >

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/7/2011 5:13:07 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

It is interesting that Tweak demands all recent history and events regarding Israel and Palestine must be ignored.

But in other things, history from hundreds (thousands)of year ago, is relevant.

Is she a hypocrite or an anti semite?

I didnt see Tweaks demand any such thing. Yet again you are putting words in peoples mouths and name calling.

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/7/2011 5:17:26 AM

luckydawg

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tweak isn't going to deny it.

Numerous times she refused to discuss the Arab invasion and occupation of Palestine.

And the current interference.

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/7/2011 5:20:44 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Islam does in fact hate the Jews, as none are even allowed to communicate travel to or even in country. Peace [sic] missions must be on neutral ground. This hate springs from Islam's belief in Zionism and all its attendant if imaginary evils. I can imagine the posts already, yes the threat...of Zionism.

I have studied and seen more than enough of recent and 21st century Islam to have a right to feel that in the debate of Islam vs the west, theirs is still in far too many ways...a primitive culture

Your study falls well short of the truth, if you are claiming the above to be true.

As for stoning, it has (For the most part) only taken place in some Countries were fundamentalists hold sway. Or, as in Afghanistan, in areas were the Government doesnt have control.

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/7/2011 5:21:51 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

tweak isn't going to deny it.

Numerous times she refused to discuss the Arab invasion and occupation of Palestine.

And the current interference.

Way to avoid what I said......nothing new there though.

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/7/2011 5:24:37 AM

luckydawg

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yep, just you trolling.

Nothing new....

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/7/2011 5:40:23 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

yep, just you trolling.

Nothing new....

Others will see it differently. You made a statement claiming an untruth, now you are denying having done so by deflecting the focus onto me.

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/7/2011 5:45:55 AM

luckydawg

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No you are interjecting into a convo that is going over a few threads.

That you can't keep up doesn't make me a claimer of untruths.

Do you have aything of relevance to the topic?

Or just trollin?

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/7/2011 5:53:03 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

No you are interjecting into a convo that is going over a few threads.

That you can't keep up doesn't make me a claimer of untruths.

Do you have aything of relevance to the topic?

Or just trollin?

You are so busy name calling you must have missed my posts on the subject.

Again, you made a statement that was untrue. This time that I havent posted anything of relevance. Now, calm down, get a grip, and stop the lies. You are making yourself look stupid, then again, whats new ?

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RE: Cameron on Islam v. the West - 2/7/2011 6:03:50 AM

luckydawg

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Except I haven't.

Why don't you quote me what you thnk is a false statement.

I don't even know what subject you are talking about, excpet me. So yeah, I must have missed your posts.

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