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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 1:46:25 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

If someone, whether a parent or the state, has guardianship because the person is incapable of consenting or understanding what it means to consent, then it's legal to prevent pregnancy.

More important than the relatively small number of developmentally delayed to which such a precedence may apply, are the rising numbers of elderly with dementia. Are they capable of consenting to sex? Should they be prevented from having it? What if an adult child has conservatorship and is upset that their parent is having relations with another patient? Should they have the right to demand that the nursing home prevent this? Should they morally be justified in  moving a parent who is accustomed to the home to another one in order to break up such a relationship?


AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH! It's a moral maze! :)

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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 2:02:26 PM   
LadyRian


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Status: offline 		It's a moral miasma. 




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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 2:07:11 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyRian

It's a moral miasma. 


Having worked with mental health teams, my faith in them is pretty strong - they're generally very caring folk, and just want what is best for the individual, and often stick up most for their rights.

So it's not a case of "big brother coming, bung your tinfoil hat on".

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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 2:17:03 PM   
Palliata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

Having worked with mental health teams, my faith in them is pretty strong - they're generally very caring folk, and just want what is best for the individual, and often stick up most for their rights.

So it's not a case of "big brother coming, bung your tinfoil hat on".


With all due respect to the profession, my observations have taught me that there is very little more dangerous in the world than a group of people with a flawed view of reality and a desire to help their subject.

I don't think anyone is questioning the motivations of the mental health profession; the question is more whether they are correct in their estimations, and more generally whether they ought to be making recommendations with the force of law on how others should live.

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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 2:20:18 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata
With all due respect


I never fails to make me chuckle when I hear or read that phrase; it always means the same thing - "I'm about to be massively disrespectful" :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata

to the profession, my observations have taught me that there is very little more dangerous in the world than a group of people with a flawed view of reality and a desire to help their subject.

I don't think anyone is questioning the motivations of the mental health profession; the question is more whether they are correct in their estimations, and more generally whether they ought to be making recommendations with the force of law on how others should live.


I guess it'll take a shedload more court cases and assessment. So instead of clinical professionals we'll be relying on lawyers instead.

Don't have nightmares :)

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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 2:23:12 PM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata
I don't think anyone is questioning the motivations of the mental health profession; the question is more whether they are correct in their estimations, and more generally whether they ought to be making recommendations with the force of law on how others should live.


Somebody has to protect those who are incapable of protecting themselves. Whether that means a 16 year old with the mental capacity of a 6 or a 36 year old with that same capacity or an 86 year old now reduced to less than that.

If you don't want a trained professional protecting them, then what do you suggest? Other than declaring them open for abuse by anyone who would care to do so?


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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 2:25:38 PM   
CalifChick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sundowner

But assume you enjoy having an erect and pleasing penis slipped up your bum (even though your IQ is still at the rather low level) and assume I were to possess such a penis, together with a strong delight in the bum-slipping-up activity and also a realistic sense of responsibility which prompted me to use a suitable condom and suitable lubricant whenever buggering people. I would be pissed if a Court said I couldn't indulge.



Well my friend, if my physical age was 40, yet my mental age was that of someone in the single digits, then yes, I would say you should be prevented from engaging in such activity.  An adult with an IQ of 48 has the mental decision-making skills of a person in the single digits.

Cali



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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 2:26:51 PM   
LadyRian


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Status: offline 		On reason they closed the aforementioned State hospitals, is that they were poorly managed, medical staff quality was very poor as well, the living conditions were deplorable, and they had become a "catch all", especially for kids from economically disadvantaged families, who were discipline problems. Their parents, in desperation, committed them. Many times they had learning disabilities, or were hyperactive (this was in 1960, facilities were primitive). They had an instant diagnosis slapped on them, and someone who would have grown into a normal adult instead adopted behaviour patterns of those who were more seriously impaired, due to the institutionalisation. These people were sterilised as well.   The big flap came when the hospitals were closed, and upon further investigation it was discovered that people of normal intelligence had been virtually incarcerated in these places, and had regressed. The hospitals were terrible places- rife with neglect and abuse. They were closed in the 1970's  through humanitarian action on the part of the public, and most have been torn down.  

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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 2:29:28 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick
Well my friend, if my physical age was 40, yet my mental age was that of someone in the single digits, then yes, I would say you should be prevented from engaging in such activity.  An adult with an IQ of 48 has the mental decision-making skills of a person in the single digits.


What puzzles me is why they think any man with an erection has an IQ of more than 48 in the first place.

I mean, where are the comparative studies?

:)

< Message edited by RapierFugue -- 2/6/2011 2:30:32 PM >

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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 2:35:09 PM   
LadyRian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick
Well my friend, if my physical age was 40, yet my mental age was that of someone in the single digits, then yes, I would say you should be prevented from engaging in such activity.  An adult with an IQ of 48 has the mental decision-making skills of a person in the single digits.


What puzzles me is why they think any man with an erection has an IQ of more than 48 in the first place.

I mean, where are the comparative studies?

:)


Here!
I have that data available to me, and the IQ goes down to 0.00 when an erection is present. What's worse, is that this is the time some men choose to use their intellectual decision making capacity!


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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 2:45:00 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyRian

Here!
I have that data available to me, and the IQ goes down to 0.00 when an erection is present. What's worse, is that this is the time some men choose to use their intellectual decision making capacity!


Yeah ... the thing is ... if I crack a joke ... then you just repeating that joke back to me isn't hugely funny.

But not to worry :) Superbowl's on in a min, so it's all good :)

TTFN :)

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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 2:58:27 PM   
Palliata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata
With all due respect


I never fails to make me chuckle when I hear or read that phrase; it always means the same thing - "I'm about to be massively disrespectful" :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata

to the profession, my observations have taught me that there is very little more dangerous in the world than a group of people with a flawed view of reality and a desire to help their subject.

I don't think anyone is questioning the motivations of the mental health profession; the question is more whether they are correct in their estimations, and more generally whether they ought to be making recommendations with the force of law on how others should live.


I guess it'll take a shedload more court cases and assessment. So instead of clinical professionals we'll be relying on lawyers instead.

Don't have nightmares :)


No, you're making very much the opposite point - it is the side in support of this decision that wants the lawyers relied upon. My argument is expressly that lawyers shouldn't be involved because the decision is not clear-cut enough to carry the force of law. You're telling us that they should be involved because the courts have a responsibility to intervene. If you want lawyers to get out of your way, there is a very easy solution: don't involve the courts.

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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 3:15:00 PM   
Palliata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata
I don't think anyone is questioning the motivations of the mental health profession; the question is more whether they are correct in their estimations, and more generally whether they ought to be making recommendations with the force of law on how others should live.


Somebody has to protect those who are incapable of protecting themselves. Whether that means a 16 year old with the mental capacity of a 6 or a 36 year old with that same capacity or an 86 year old now reduced to less than that.

If you don't want a trained professional protecting them, then what do you suggest? Other than declaring them open for abuse by anyone who would care to do so?


I'm not debating that there are certain steps that need to be taken to protect people with diminshed capacity, nor am I debating that the best (frankly the only) qualified people to do so would be the mental health system. What I am debating whether or not this particular case warrants the particular actions taken.

There is a difference between an adult with the intellectual capacity of a 6 year old (though estimates seem to vary pretty widely as to what mental capacity a 48 actually is in terms of age, we're going to take your number for argument) and an ACTUAL 6 year old is significant. An ACTUAL 6 year old has no sexual desire, and anyone who has sexual contact with them is therefore presumed to be forcing such things on them well before they are ready to handle them. Not only do they have an intellectual quality which is befitting their age, they also have an emotional quality (no emotional age was given for the man in this case) befitting that age and a set of desires and life experiences to the same effect. This man, on the other hand, has the hormones, experience, and to some extent probably the emotional development which occurs in others his age.

The reason we protect children from sex isn't because they lack the intellect to partake of it, but because they lack the emotional maturity, life experience, and hormonal adaptation to do so. This man is not a child, and should not be treated as such just because his intelligence is on the level of one. His quality of life is diminished by this ruling, and at the end of the day that should be the first and last responsibility of a mental health practitioner - to improve the quality of life of those under their care. If his doctors/psychologists/etc believe he is not prepared for sex, they should take therapeutic steps to deal with that according to their abilities and experience. They should not take legal steps to have someone follow him around and thwart his free will on a day-to-day basis.

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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 3:20:20 PM   
Ishtarr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

This is a potential abuse in the making. No court is going into the bedrooms to determine if any acts are harmful, they dont have that right. What they are saying is... Alan doesnt have the ability to determine that for himself... so the court must.



So you're advocating that's it's perfectly reasonable to take away people's right to pursue happiness because they could POTENTIALLY be abused?
If you willingly engage in a relationship with a man who wants to tie you up and spank you, there is a clear potential for him to abuse you once you've been tied up... so obviously, we morally can't allow you to engage in such behavior...

I really don't get when it became okay in people's minds to take away the freedom of individuals to POTENTIALLY save other individual's from abuse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

No, I believe the courts feel they're acting in the individual's best interest. Sometimes the only boogeyman people need to be protected from is the one staring them in the mirror.



Since when did it became the court's job to act in the individual's best interest?
The court's job is to make sure that people who break the State's laws are punished.

Courts have no business stepping into people's live to protect them from potential harm. It's not the court's job, or original function, nor should it be.

I'm sure that the majority of people out on the street feel that a submissive who wants to engage in knife play should be protected from themselves.
Is it therefore okay for that majority, to step in by means of the courts and infringe on that submissive's rights to engage in behavior that doesn't harm anybody else?

When did it become moral just to protect people from making their own mistakes, regardless of their mental capacity?

And IF it's morally just to protect people from themselves, does that mean that it's right for society to force people to fall in line and not engage in any behavior that the current cultural norm considers to be potentially harmful?

Is Alan allowed to decide he wants to smoke?

Think about that one, seriously...

Is Alan allowed to cross the street?

Is Alan allowed to eat fattening foods?

And if its moral just for society to disallow people from making their own choices because of the POTENTIAL for harm... are adults with an IQ of 60 allowed to smoke and have sex?

What about an IQ of 70?
What about and IQ of 100?

Seriously... why are we allowing people to smoke at all?

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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 3:28:18 PM   
Ishtarr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

This is the state imposing non-consensual celibacy - is there an IQ limit for being considered human now?




quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata

Why exactly do we presume the court qualified to decide who is and isn't capable of making decisions to increase their own happiness?



Exactly...

When did it became the court's job to govern society?

When did it became the court's job to make sure people don't harm themselves?

When did it became the court's job to infringe on people's rights out of the fear that a crime could potentially be committed?


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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 3:31:48 PM   
Ishtarr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: osf

it's sorta like motorcycle helmet laws, we as a society have decided we are not going it leave you lying on the side of the road decomposing. we are going to pick your injured ass up and cart you to medical care, in return you have to take actions to ameliorate possible injury.

this is another case in which society doesn't allow the individual to make stupid decisions no matter how high his iq is



How does the fact that society infringes on people's rights to make their own choices proof that it's ethically to do so?

The fact that motorcycle riders aren't allowed to make their own choices because they could potentially harm themselves doesn't proof in the least that it's ethical to prohibit Alan from having sex because he could potentially harm himself.

All it does is show that it's become the norm in our society to babysit people and force them to be safe, even if we have to infringe on their rights to do so.

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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 3:31:58 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
But he can't, according to the court, "choose" in any meaningful sense, because he lacks the capacity to do so?
Of course, I might argue the same thing regarding Carol's ability to choose in the face of my strong opinion.

Insofar as the OP, I think I don't know nearly enough to have an opinion on what is, undoubtedly, a very nuanced situation.


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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 3:33:23 PM   
subtlebutterfly


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Status: offline 		Ishtarr.
It has already been established by the European Court of Human Rights that the ability to conduct one's life in a manner of one's own choosing may also include the opportunity to pursue activities perceived to be of a physically or morally harmful or dangerous nature for the individual concerned.

The Court has stated that the extent to which a State can use compulsory powers or the criminal law to protect people from the consequences of their chosen lifestyle has long been a topic of moral and jurisprudential discussion, the fact that the interference is often viewed as trespassing on the private and personal sphere adding to the vigour of the debate.

Furthermore it has stated that even where the conduct poses a danger to health or, arguably, where it is of a life-threatening nature, the case-law of the Convention institutions has regarded the State's imposition of compulsory or criminal measures as impinging on the private life of the applicant within the meaning of Article 8 § 1 and requiring justification in terms of the second paragraph (see, for example, concerning involvement in consensual sado-masochistic activities which amounted to assault and wounding and concerning refusal of medical treatment).

The only question is whether the law of the State justifies the means for protecting a vulnerable person at the cost of the persons human rights.

< Message edited by subtlebutterfly -- 2/6/2011 3:35:21 PM >

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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 3:35:41 PM   
Ishtarr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: subtlebutterfly

Yea. Guess we gotta agree to disagree that if only affects borderline cases. Like I say, allowing this will risk the law going down the slippery slope.


But "the law" isn't going down a slippery slope yet, because "the law" hasn't worked out what its final stance on this topic is yet.



The court went down a slippery slop the second it decided it was justified to infringe on somebody's right to engage in an absolutely legal activity out of fear that they could potentially hurt themselves from doing so.

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RE: Illegal to consent to sex? - 2/6/2011 3:44:08 PM   
Ishtarr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtlebutterfly

The only question is whether the law of the State justifies the means for protecting a vulnerable person at the cost of the persons human rights.


To me, this isn't the only question at all.

In fact, to me, this is one of the least important questions in this debate.

I don't care whether or not the state and the courts themselves find it justifiable to protect people from the potential of harm against themselves.

I care about whether or not people in the street and the social mindset of society as a whole regards it as justifiable for entities (be them courts or individuals) to step in and force people to not engage in actions that could potentially lead to self harm.

As long as it's culturally acceptable to force people who aren't harming anybody else to do what we want because we disapprove, the courts will continue to rule that they're justified in infringing in people's rights.

Courts are never that which sets a cultural trend, public opinion is, and the courts lag behind in following the socially acceptable norm of the time.

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 2/6/2011 3:48:07 PM >

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Hör wie es schreit!

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