Illegal to consent to sex? (Full Version)

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Ishtarr -> Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 3:58:39 PM)

In light of recent debates on the board, in regards to people's ability or inability to consent to certain BDSM related acts, I found this article interesting:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1354025/High-Court-bans-man-low-IQ-having-sex.html

The court ruled that a man, Alan, is no longer allowed to have sex with the man he is living with -his partner presumable- because Alan is deemed unable to consent to the act of having sex.

Alan has an IQ of 48, and a learning disability.

Alan himself stated he finds the relationship enjoyable and wants it to continue.

He has been placed under court supervision to prevent him from being able to do so, and to prevent him from being able to engage in sexual relationships with other parties.

Do you feel that the court has any business stating that Alan is unable to consent?
If so, does the same principal apply to BDSM?
And under what circumstances should the courts rule that people are not allowed to consent to legal acts they state they want to consent to?



kalikshama -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:11:01 PM)

I'm finding myself thinking the court is wrong in this case but would not be wrong if the person in question was a fertile female.
[sm=couch.gif]

Ishtar, would you provide links to the consent threads to which you are referring?

Thanks,

KK



osf -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:12:52 PM)

in this country I believe you can't legally consent to an activity that is illegal

if you consent to be injured and someone injures you they are open to prosecution anyway

plus the doctrine of informed consent



littlewonder -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:13:49 PM)

I'm thinking this male who has the low iq isn't aware of the consequences of sexual relations....transmitted diseases  and such and thus why the judge  has banned it. Also if the person has such a low iq, who is this person's guardian? I don't believe he can live on his own without one by law. If it's his partner then that throws another wrench into the issue.

I find the whole relationship to be pretty cringeworthy for me. Should the low iq male be allowed to have sex? For me personally?....no  and for the reasons I stated above about awareness of consequences.

Just because he enjoys it doesn't mean he should do it. If that were true we should all be allowed to do anything at all we want to do just because we enjoy it.



frazzle -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:15:35 PM)

nm.



RapierFugue -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:24:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
The court ruled that a man, Alan, is no longer allowed to have sex with the man he is living with -his partner presumable- because Alan is deemed unable to consent to the act of having sex.

Alan has an IQ of 48, and a learning disability.


He's still several IQ points above some of CM's trolls and sock-puppets ... no wonder they're so unhappy :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Alan himself stated he finds the relationship enjoyable and wants it to continue.

He has been placed under court supervision to prevent him from being able to do so, and to prevent him from being able to engage in sexual relationships with other parties.


Oh dear lord ... legal minefield ... I mean, to me, it seems a shame that, if he can express clearly his approval of said relationship, then it's a shame it's being denied him, because it can't be much fun for him having a source of enjoyment removed.

OTOH, the court is under an obligation to protect individuals who are intellectually sub-normal enough that they cannot be deemed to be able to make their own decisions.

OTOOH, are we now saying people need to sit a test before they have sex? Actually, given some of the people I've met in my life, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Do you feel that the court has any business stating that Alan is unable to consent?


I think it does, yes. Because if he isn't capable enough to make his own mind up about certain things then someone has to, so it would presumably have to be a court.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
If so, does the same principal apply to BDSM?


Well any “violent” acts would already be covered wouldn’t they? As in they can’t be consented to by anyone (certainly not in the UK after the Spanner case? Not sure).

The voluntary/slavery aspects would also seem to be “wrong” from a court’s POV, so presumably they would also be banned/prohibited?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
And under what circumstances should the courts rule that people are not allowed to consent to legal acts they state they want to consent to?


When they are deemed not aware or intelligent enough to make decisions objectively for themselves.

I must admit though, it's a very thought-provoking topic, and one I’m not entirely sure my responses are correct about.



Ishtarr -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:28:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Ishtar, would you provide links to the consent threads to which you are referring?



http://www.collarchat.com/m_3549392/tm.htm

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3537541/tm.htm

Neither one is specifically about people's ability or inability to consent, but in both the concept was discussed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: osf

in this country I believe you can't legally consent to an activity that is illegal

if you consent to be injured and someone injures you they are open to prosecution anyway



I wasn't so much thinking about consent to engage in illegal acts, but about consent to engage in those area's of BDSM that are legal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Just because he enjoys it doesn't mean he should do it. If that were true we should all be allowed to do anything at all we want to do just because we enjoy it.



Do you support the idea that people should be allowed things they enjoy doing as long as it doesn't harm anybody else? (Which in the case of Alan, isn't an established fact, because he might harm other people by potentially transmitting STDs.)

Would you support Alan's right to engage in soft core BDSM where there is no risk of transmitting STDs, with a pro-Domme for instance, should he chose to do so?



RapierFugue -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:30:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

Would you support Alan's right to engage in soft core BDSM where there is no risk of transmitting STDs, with a pro-Domme for instance, should he chose to do so?


But he can't, according to the court, "choose" in any meaningful sense, because he lacks the capacity to do so?



Phoenixpower -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:31:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Do you feel that the court has any business stating that Alan is unable to consent?


Over here someone is considered as having the mental capacity to make decisions themselves unless proven otherwise. I feel the court has business to interfere but that iMO it would require a thorough investigation of the relationship of the two people involved. If his relationship with the other person is a non-abusive relationship then IMO the court shouldn't interfere as it is, as stated, a basic human function.

I think the court should offer the couple relationship counselling to offer them support about that current situation, in which also the true nature of the relationship might be better to get established instead of having the overbearing view that it would be confusing to start sex education with him. It just makes my eyes roll to have that believe as i know some social workers who also have the strong view that you must be a bad parent when you were abused as a kid, instead of accepting it that there is no one size fits all.

quote:


And under what circumstances should the courts rule that people are not allowed to consent to legal acts they state they want to consent to?


IMO they could rule it when it would be apparent that the person is being used or abused with having sex from his partner, but even then they should offer support for him to understand the function of human relationships better instead of banning them from it which sounds like treating them like a little kid. He could be at risk of being used as I know many clients from a previous employer who would do almost anything to "feel being loved or having a friendsihp" and at times not realising what was truly going on. Anyhow, just because that could be the case doesn't mean it is the case and if it is a genuine relationship then I think it is wrong to interfere.



Ishtarr -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:36:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

Would you support Alan's right to engage in soft core BDSM where there is no risk of transmitting STDs, with a pro-Domme for instance, should he chose to do so?


But he can't, according to the court, "choose" in any meaningful sense, because he lacks the capacity to do so?


I'm not so much concerned with what the courts think about this... the courts also deem it illegal to consent to being hit by somebody in certain context.

Clearly the BDSM community doesn't always agree with the court's opinion of what we're allowed to consent to...

So that being the case, how do we feel, from a moral point of view, about Alan's ability/right to consent to something he wants to do.

And if Alan should not be allowed to consent, why should we be allowed to consent to engage in BDSM?

I'm curious to see where the individuals on this board personally draw the line as to what they personally feel other people should be allowed to consent to...



Palliata -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:39:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I'm thinking this male who has the low iq isn't aware of the consequences of sexual relations....transmitted diseases  and such and thus why the judge  has banned it. Also if the person has such a low iq, who is this person's guardian? I don't believe he can live on his own without one by law. If it's his partner then that throws another wrench into the issue.

I find the whole relationship to be pretty cringeworthy for me. Should the low iq male be allowed to have sex? For me personally?....no  and for the reasons I stated above about awareness of consequences.

Just because he enjoys it doesn't mean he should do it. If that were true we should all be allowed to do anything at all we want to do just because we enjoy it.


Call me an anarchist, but I firmly believe people SHOULD be allowed to do anything they enjoy so long as they aren't hurting anyone else. Who are we to say whether he should or shouldn't be having sex? We all have little imperfections in our judgement - are you going to argue that anyone who isn't a perfect judge of consequences shouldn't be allowed to have sex? Neuroscience is going to say that means no sex until 24 when you become fully able to predict. Personally that would put a big crimp in my life.



RapierFugue -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:41:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
I'm curious to see where the individuals on this board personally draw the line as to what they personally feel other people should be allowed to consent to...


I confess to being utterly flummoxed, which is rare for me ... for every "yes" argument I can think of there's an equally good "no" argument.

I do think though that, having re-read your latest post, above, that you're comparing apples with oranges; the stance of a BDSM community in relation to a court's "right" to impinge on our activities isn't anything like its right to impinge on someone it considers unfit of independent decision making.



Ishtarr -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:42:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

IMO they could rule it when it would be apparent that the person is being used or abused with having sex from his partner, but even then they should offer support for him to understand the function of human relationships better instead of banning them from it which sounds like treating them like a little kid. He could be at risk of being used as I know many clients from a previous employer who would do almost anything to "feel being loved or having a friendsihp" and at times not realising what was truly going on. Anyhow, just because that could be the case doesn't mean it is the case and if it is a genuine relationship then I think it is wrong to interfere.



Do you feel that Alan has the ability/right to consent to being "harmed", like by engaging in a BDSM relationship.

If Alan's actions do not harm anybody else, is him saying that he wants to engage in certain behavior enough to allow him to engage in it, even if it harms himself?

If Alan should not be allowed to "harm" himself, when stating he wants to do so, should other people be allowed to "harm" themselves by engaging in BDSM?




osf -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:43:48 PM)

48 is pretty low on the iq scale

and i would wonder what influenced him to engage in this conduct and would he be conscious of any possible danger were it to develop

does he have the mental capacity to develop confidence and trust in another person and recognize when it was being trespassed

It's hard to form an opinion without first hand knowledge



littlewonder -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:46:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Just because he enjoys it doesn't mean he should do it. If that were true we should all be allowed to do anything at all we want to do just because we enjoy it.



Do you support the idea that people should be allowed things they enjoy doing as long as it doesn't harm anybody else? (Which in the case of Alan, isn't an established fact, because he might harm other people by potentially transmitting STDs.)

Would you support Alan's right to engage in soft core BDSM where there is no risk of transmitting STDs, with a pro-Domme for instance, should he chose to do so?


No I don't think we should be allowed to do whatever we want even if it doesn't harm others but then I'm of the opinion that every single thing we do affects someone else eventually.

And the court has already agreed that he isn't able to make that choice mentally to engage in sex so it's unlikely he'd be able to make the choice to engage in bdsm in any form and I'd very much question the person who engaged him in it in the first place.

Just because I like bdsm doesn't mean I believe anything goes or that I'm a hedonist.




Phoenixpower -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:47:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata

Call me an anarchist, but I firmly believe people SHOULD be allowed to do anything they enjoy so long as they aren't hurting anyone else. Who are we to say whether he should or shouldn't be having sex? We all have little imperfections in our judgement - are you going to argue that anyone who isn't a perfect judge of consequences shouldn't be allowed to have sex? Neuroscience is going to say that means no sex until 24 when you become fully able to predict.


what she said [:)] And as it was stated earlier, if he is so lacking of mental capacity, then he shouldn't be able to live on his own anyway (if he does) as there is a whole range out there how he could injure himself or get sick and not being able to realise on time if he needs help and how to get help.

Also, what is sometimes not realised (e.g. from people who are interfering in such relationships) is the fact that if they interfere in a good and supportive relationship and destroy that, then they destroy a potential friend for that person who is able to help him if he would ever need help due to e.g. being bullied or abused by other people. At my previous employers the emphasis was high on socialising the clients as much as possible with other people, to ensure they have potential points of contacts where they feel to be able to raise their voice in case they ever experience abuse from someone else or where someone from their network has at least the chance to pick up if his behaviour is changing in a worrying way. Of course the hope is that they never need it but at the end of the day it is easier to help a person in need if that person has friendships as when s/he is kept in isolation.



frazzle -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 4:53:39 PM)

FR

low IQ doesnt stop the body growing up and the normal urges occuring.

How this is dealt with!!!! i havent a clue.

i have been support for someone, who however much she loved her children, wasnt able to look after them. they were taken into care, and her answer was to have another.

the pain each time that happened, did make me wonder if the system shouldnt have done something.



Phoenixpower -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 5:03:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

IMO they could rule it when it would be apparent that the person is being used or abused with having sex from his partner, but even then they should offer support for him to understand the function of human relationships better instead of banning them from it which sounds like treating them like a little kid. He could be at risk of being used as I know many clients from a previous employer who would do almost anything to "feel being loved or having a friendsihp" and at times not realising what was truly going on. Anyhow, just because that could be the case doesn't mean it is the case and if it is a genuine relationship then I think it is wrong to interfere.



Do you feel that Alan has the ability/right to consent to being "harmed", like by engaging in a BDSM relationship.

If Alan's actions do not harm anybody else, is him saying that he wants to engage in certain behavior enough to allow him to engage in it, even if it harms himself?

If Alan should not be allowed to "harm" himself, when stating he wants to do so, should other people be allowed to "harm" themselves by engaging in BDSM?


I think it would call the safeguarding adults team to his front door as I don't think they (at least judging on the experience I made with the child protection team folks on my placement) would get it that it can be a joy, so to speak.

anyhow, for me there is a difference between enjoying sex and taking part on bdsm in his situation and I would not be impressed about a Dom/me to practise bdsm with him as they should be aware about it that they can dig themselves into shit and he would be classified as a vulnerable adult with having a learning disability.

Knowing the guys I worked with over the last 5 years, which are approx. 200 adults with learning disabilities, I know quite a few where I think they would engage in it just to experience being loved or having a "true" friend but that does not mean they would have the capacity to differentiate between taking part in bdsm and being in an abusive relationship.



LadyPact -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 5:08:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Do you feel that the court has any business stating that Alan is unable to consent?

Yes, I do.  I'm gathering from the article that the man has been tested sufficiently for it to be known that the man could absolutely be considered a potential health risk to others at some point.  It was very clearly mentioned that the man doesn't have the mental competence to understand sexual education.  Should the man become infected with HIV, while not having the competency to understand safe sex practices, he could literally become a public health risk.  The article doesn't say specifically that he is in a monogamous sexual relationship, so that may be part of why the system is involved in the first place.

quote:

If so, does the same principal apply to BDSM?

Meaning that people with limited mental capacity to the point that they don't have the ability to consent shouldn't be involved in BDSM?  Yes.  That's one of the prime reasons that we only play with adults.

quote:

And under what circumstances should the courts rule that people are not allowed to consent to legal acts they state they want to consent to?

When they honestly don't have that ability.  An IQ of 48 would probably fall into that category.



Phoenixpower -> RE: Illegal to consent to sex? (2/5/2011 5:09:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: frazzle

FR

low IQ doesnt stop the body growing up and the normal urges occuring.

How this is dealt with!!!! i havent a clue.


Thankfully with the abolishment from leaving adults with learning disabilities in longterm stay hospitals and moving more and more into community care as well as supported living homes instead of residential care homes it is more acknowledged these days to treat them as adults and not as children. It was a joy at previous employers to see clients in "real relationships" which included weddings, supporting them to attend relationship counsellors as well as funerals from their partner.



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