RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery

RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (Full Version)

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GreedyTop -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 9:22:29 AM)
standing ovation

LadyHibiscus -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 9:39:52 AM)
Brilliant!

ReginaMirus -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 10:17:51 AM)
God forbid we didn't have lingerie and hosiery factories anymore. We wimmin types would never get laid again.

LadyNTrainer -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 1:48:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nakedplaything it oozes femininity, as it has such a vulnerability, softness and weakness to its look. Yeah. No. Go jerk off to your "women are soft and weak" fantasies over in the male dominant forum.

PeonForHer -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 1:54:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious Not only that, but equating female with really unbreathable fabric... [8D] I've always considered you very breathable indeed, VC, and I won't hear it said otherwise.

PeonForHer -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 1:59:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subexploring No dog in this fight, but just to note because this seems to come up a lot...I think that when it comes to non-TG types, "forced fem" is not humiliating because being a woman is humiliating, but because being a man dressed as a woman is humiliating. Very different. All the play is about the nature of masculinity and how the man relates to that, not about being a woman. Yep. As a male who isn't into cross-dressing and has no strong feelings one way or the other about being put into female clothes - that makes sense. I'd imagine it's an enlightening sort of experience in lots of different ways.

PeonForHer -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 3:51:51 PM)
. . . And just to add, though it's off the subject: The wolf in sheep's clothing thing. Absolutely love it. Femdoms in flowery dresses and strappy sandals - yep, yum.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 5:53:43 PM)
I often wear flowery dresses and strappy sandals, weather permitting... I AM UBERFEMME![;)]

PeonForHer -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 6:04:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I often wear flowery dresses and strappy sandals, weather permitting... I AM UBERFEMME![;)] You are indeed, Lady Hib! I understand that women dress likewise here, too, weather permitting. But I can't remember the last bloody time it permitted, unfortunately.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 6:17:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I often wear flowery dresses and strappy sandals, weather permitting... I AM UBERFEMME![;)] You are indeed, Lady Hib! I understand that women dress likewise here, too, weather permitting. But I can't remember the last bloody time it permitted, unfortunately. Nor can I... but I do wear fishnets under my long velvet dresses!

MaamJay -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 7:32:03 PM)
Firstly, let Me add to the standing ovation for strangedesire's brilliant answer! YAY! Secondly, as someone who was married to a crossdresser and gave him his first pair of stockings (he was only into shoes when I met him) ... yes, stockings can be sexy. So can ladies panties. I know that if I want to feel powerful and sexy (eg when going to meet a new sub) I choose to put on a pretty bra and panties and a pair of thigh highs because of how they make Me feel ... not because there's any chance that subbywubby will be getting to see them that day! However, I take a VERY dim view of a male wanting to wear them for humiliation ... because I, like the others here, do NOT find being female/feminine humiliating. The ex-hub was ENVIOUS of women for being able to wear them all the time as he felt that we get all the nice sexy silky slippery satiny fabrics! When he wore his girl stuff it was NEVER forced (shit, I'd have to force him NOT to wear them!), and was always with a sense of envy that women can wear them all the time without danger. The problem with him however, was that it became obvious he was a fetishist ... not a submissive. There was not really any success in having him actually bending his will to Mine in any permanently lasting way ... hence it all busted up. This seems to be the case with a number of crossdressers I have met, hence I am very wary of them now! As to the whole "forced" but I want to thing ... well that really does leave Me cold. I am NOT going to be someone's excuse for doing what they really want to do! Where's the self honesty in that? Truly OP, you have been lucky to get the well thought out replies that you have so far ... but don't expect to find a long line of willing femDomme partners with the way your fetish works ... it's not how most of us are wired! Yes, pro-Dommes will play that game with you willingly ... because you are PAYING for them to do so ... but lifestyle Dommes? Not likely! Maam Jay aka violet[A]

PeonForHer -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 8:13:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MaamJayAs to the whole "forced" but I want to thing ... well that really does leave Me cold. I must admit, I never had a problem with that 'It can't be forced if it's something that's desired' idea. We use the word 'force' in BDSM in a modified form, just like we use 'slave' in a way that's different to its usual, vanilla sense. In a major way, the BDSM senses of such words . . . don't make sense. Some terms - like 'slave' and 'forced cross-dressing' - are always subjected to the vanilla interrogation of them, while others never seem to be. It's beginning to look arbitrary to me. For instance, I've frequently seen discussions about the subject of BDSM slavery where the same, vanilla-sense argument comes up - that a 'slave can't be a true slave if he's able to choose not to be one anymore'. But I've never seen an argument that asks, 'How can you really be a true master or mistress if your slave has the option to leave at any time?' Me, the first time I saw a man happily helping his dominant tie him up in order to be flogged, I thought, 'Eh? How can it work for him if he's colluding in it? Why doesn't she just get on with the whipping and forget the binding, since it's plain that's what he wants?' But that was naive, of course. He wanted to feel constrained - feel forced to stay where he was while she whipped him, and was quite happy to facilitate that feeling by colluding in the tying up - and to hell with the paradox. BDSM 'force' always seems a paradoxical sort of force - but most of us, most of the time, don't question that paradoxical nature of it. There are elements of this 'forced-but-not-forced' everywhere in BDSM, as far as I can see. Forced cross-dressing seems to be just another example of it. I can understand why lots of dominants don't like it and are even outright repelled by it. But I can't quite grasp why this particular argument, of 'how can it be forced if the person wants it' always seems to come up in relation to this matter of 'forced cross-dressing', but hardly anywhere else.

OttersSwim -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 9:23:59 PM)
I have most often found that the "need" to be forced, even if the male does not find the prospect humiliating, is still very often a part of a psychological "dodge" of the truth of his being - I speak from experience as that used to be me... If you are "forced" in to this, even when you admit that you want it, then you are spared having to face the reality of what you are - in opposition to much of societal norms...in opposition to how many of us males were raised...you are a male expressing female traits, feminine desires...you are breaking the rules... If you don't have to face it, you don't have to embrace it...you don't move forward, but can get and/or stay stuck in a pattern of non-recognition of the "truth of your soul"...you are very likely not authentic, you are very likely stuck...in denial, in repression, of the truth of you. Further, I believe that the longer that a person remains in this state, the more likely that what they are feeling will develop into an unhealthy fetish pattern. At least, that is my experience of it... To my mind, this is very different from someone who has acknowledged that they are kinky and are actively participating in their life, their choices, their authentic self...

SthrnCom4t -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 9:52:50 PM)
I'll admit to not having read some of the longer posts, but I did want to address a common translation I am seeing with several of the Ladies' answers. A perspective being drawn is that the OP feeling humiliated by wearing women's clothing, translates into something negative, because, feeling female is not a bad feeling. OP + women's clothing = OP feeling humiliated. Let's look at what the definition of 'humiliation' is..........it has to do with feelings of shame, dishonor, and degradation. Triggers for these feelings are very personal, and different for different people. It would make perfect sense that someone who is feminine/female, would not have the same feelings around feminine clothing. (Midori gives a great talk on 'erotic humiliation' where she talks of personal values, and whether they are primary, secondary, or tertiary.) My personal opinion is that when submissive men speak of cross-dressing and humiliation, they are just giving their preferred method of experiencing erotic humiliation. I don't believe they are in any way putting a negative connotation on 'being feminine' per se. One feels 'humiliated' when moved outside of his/her mental comfort zone. A masculine man feeling discomfort secondary to the clothing (which on a woman he finds very appealing) becomes erotic humiliation. For some submissives being made to eat of out of a dog bowl would be humiliating, for others into puppy play, this would all be good fun. Our primary, secondary and tertiary values are very individualized. Erotic humiliation plays with secondary and tertiary, and leaves primary values intact. Obviously for more gender fluid individuals, the values of sexuality are less rigid, than those who identify more precisely with one gender or another. If a butch dyke, for instance, feels humiliated for wearing pink, does that translate into her meaning that 'pink is bad'. No, it means FOR HER, wearing pink moves her to a place of mental discomfort. As Femdoms, who have great appreciation of masculinity, the idea of a 'feminized' man, has no appeal, I get that. But, I would caution those who would draw the conclusion that the source of erotic humiliation for some individuals, should somehow be taken as an insult.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/6/2011 10:20:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SthrnCom4t As Femdoms, who have great appreciation of masculinity, the idea of a 'feminized' man, has no appeal, I get that. But, I would caution those who would draw the conclusion that the source of erotic humiliation for some individuals, should somehow be taken as an insult. I get what you're saying, but... I think what it is for me personally, is that all my experiences with men on the crossdressing/genderbent spectrum have been positive - these are people who feel that high heels and makeup and all the pretty shiny things that go with dressing are desirable and exciting. And the thought of going from that 'wooooh! eyeshadow! [8D][8D][8D]' vibe to 'this is humiliating' is just a buzzkill for me. It's a really strong YKINMK moment for me, in a way that not many things are.

SexyBossyBBW -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/7/2011 12:01:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: strangedesire OK. You may not be aware of what you're doing here, so I'll lay it out for you. 1) You seem to think of femininity and masculinity as on a spectrum. More feminine = less masculine and vice versa. Also "femininity, traditionaly, is associated with a certain amount of vulnerability and weakness." So basically, you have inherently stronger men and inherently weaker women. (I'll talk about the way you see female power in a minute.) 2) "for a man to be made to wear highly feminine clothing, is humiliating for him, becuase it reduces his masculinity." What you're saying here is that moving along the spectrum from masculine to feminine is undesirable, and therefore humiliating. The built-in value judgment here is that it's better to be masculine than feminine. If that were not the case, it would be desirable (ie not humiliating) for men to become more feminine. 3) "it definately makes her powerfull over men, becuase of the strong effect it has on us sexually. men in a way are basically putty in your hands when your wearing provocative clothing, becuase it makes you so desirable to us." Let's talk about why this is problematic: It suggests that women cannot be powerful unless they are sexually attractive. Men are held to no such standard. It suggests that women don't have any inherent power - they have to use their sexual wiles to get power from men. Needless to say, telling dominant women that they can't be powerful without male approval tends to piss them off. Also, feminists. Also, lesbians. It suggests that female power is limited to spheres where women can exercise their sexuality. Which is funny, because I don't usually see female CEOs wearing lingerie on the job. "[sexy clothing] is so provocative and sexually exciting to men is because it is so feminine...becuase its so soft and delicate." Equating female power with delicacy and vulnerability is problematic because it suggests that she can either be strong OR be powerful, but not both. Plenty of women are both, even if they aren't weight lifters or athletes. It ignores the fact that women have sex drives of their own. Otherwise, wouldn't sexually attractive men also have this kind of power over women? What would happen if an attractive man and an attractive woman were in the same room? Who would be in control? Re: the point above, don't try the "women can control themselves and men can't" line. That's rape-apologist bullshit, and it's a line of thinking that takes power away from women far more often than it empowers them. Listen, nakedplaything, I'm sure that your fantasies are valuable to you. And I'm certainly not saying that you should give up and become vanilla. Frankly, though, the way you seem to relate to women doesn't allow them to be people, and that isn't sustainable in the long run. Unless you want to resign yourself to a life of pro-Dommes and dissatisfaction, I'd give it some thought. Just have to call the OP's attention to strangedesire; the stern looking teacher (photo/avatar), breaking the information down for him, very kindly. I would be greatful for the clarification above, if I were nakedplaything . M

Killerangel -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/7/2011 6:12:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SthrnCom4t I'll admit to not having read some of the longer posts, but I did want to address a common translation I am seeing with several of the Ladies' answers. A perspective being drawn is that the OP feeling humiliated by wearing women's clothing, translates into something negative, because, feeling female is not a bad feeling. OP + women's clothing = OP feeling humiliated. Let's look at what the definition of 'humiliation' is..........it has to do with feelings of shame, dishonor, and degradation. Triggers for these feelings are very personal, and different for different people. It would make perfect sense that someone who is feminine/female, would not have the same feelings around feminine clothing. (Midori gives a great talk on 'erotic humiliation' where she talks of personal values, and whether they are primary, secondary, or tertiary.) My personal opinion is that when submissive men speak of cross-dressing and humiliation, they are just giving their preferred method of experiencing erotic humiliation. I don't believe they are in any way putting a negative connotation on 'being feminine' per se. One feels 'humiliated' when moved outside of his/her mental comfort zone. A masculine man feeling discomfort secondary to the clothing (which on a woman he finds very appealing) becomes erotic humiliation. For some submissives being made to eat of out of a dog bowl would be humiliating, for others into puppy play, this would all be good fun. Our primary, secondary and tertiary values are very individualized. Erotic humiliation plays with secondary and tertiary, and leaves primary values intact. Obviously for more gender fluid individuals, the values of sexuality are less rigid, than those who identify more precisely with one gender or another. If a butch dyke, for instance, feels humiliated for wearing pink, does that translate into her meaning that 'pink is bad'. No, it means FOR HER, wearing pink moves her to a place of mental discomfort. As Femdoms, who have great appreciation of masculinity, the idea of a 'feminized' man, has no appeal, I get that. But, I would caution those who would draw the conclusion that the source of erotic humiliation for some individuals, should somehow be taken as an insult. Speaking for myself, I get that the OP isn't necessarily slamming women. As you pointed out, he's coming from a personal place where this type of mental discomfort is a dichotomy and therefore exciting to him. I do not feel he is insulting women. However, coming from my own personal view, I am uncomfortable at taking the thing that is the central core of my person, my femaleness, and twisting it into a tool to humiliate another with. That's just me. The highly personal aspect of it cuts both ways. I dont think the guy is getting slammed for debasing women, he's being told that it's not a comfortable thing for many women to do and why.

Elisabella -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/7/2011 9:47:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop I've never understood the "forced fem" thing that I see on so many guys profiles... how is it forced if they WANT it? Same as "rape fetish"

kalikshama -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/7/2011 9:57:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop ...of course, I also dont get folks that are Vegan.. LOL (this is not meant as a slam.. I am a total omnivore..I dont get those that dont like meat at all.. but hey whatever floats yer boat, as long as it works for you) I know dozens of vegans and for most of them it wasn't that they did not like meat, but that they thought it was morally wrong to commit violence against animals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism Veganism is the practice of eliminating the use by human beings of non-human animal products. Ethical vegans reject the commodity status of animals and the use of animal products for any purpose, while dietary vegans or strict vegetarians eliminate them from the diet only.[1] The term was coined in England by Donald Watson, who founded the British Vegan Society in 1944, and in 1960 H. Jay Dinshah started the American Vegan Society, linking it to the Jainist and Buddhist concept of ahimsa, the avoidance of violence against living things. </tangent>

thishereboi -> RE: query to fd's about forced fem involving sheer hosiery (2/7/2011 10:08:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus What LadyPact said. And like M, I rarely wear nylons. I do wear opaque tights in the winter, in colors and patterns, or fishnets/lace tights. Anyone who finds gender play humilating is someone I have no interest in. While I totally agree with both of these ladies, I did have a domme who made me drive the leather retreat golf cart in nothing but white panties decorated with pink ribbons. (I hate pink) And I have to admit I had a great time doing it, although it took a while to get used to being that naked in public. I am not sure if it falls under gender play though. note: For those who have never heard of Leather Retreat. It is a summer event at a campground and one of the volunteer duties is to drive a golf cart around to get campers and their toys to the different areas. If you can go, it's a great event where you can meet some very nice people.

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