RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (Full Version)

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joether -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 11:16:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Something to make you go, hmmm...

Fast Fix: Is Obama like Reagan? (VIDEO)

Newsweek - Obama, The Unifier

quote:

Like Reagan, the 44th president has the potential to be a truly transformational figure.



Yes, you regard him as a hero and ignore all the bad things he did to justify all his actions. A fanatic to the 'cause'.




Sanity -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 11:32:08 AM)


With the cause being individual liberty over the tyranny of an ever grownig, ever more intrusive and powerful  federal government I plead guilty as charged. Yes, I am indeed a fanatic for this cause, and very proudly so.




Moonhead -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 11:38:17 AM)

Precisely how did massive increases in military spending, the war on drugs or Reagan inviting creationism back into the public school system promote individual liberty against the tyrannical federal government, pray tell?




DesertSuperRat -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 11:40:12 AM)

I sincerely believe that Reagan's most influential acts were those that turned our economy into one based on service industries and other non-manufacturing companies. Dumbing us down to the level of servants and, most important, customers. He kicked it off and that's where we are today. You don't have to be smart or skilled nowadays, you just need to consume. Reagan put the corporations and the military (which is tied to the corporations, or maybe vice-versa), above us, the citizens.

But, on the other hand, and much to his credit, he is still dead.

[edited to add a comma]




Sanity -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 11:44:04 AM)


As someone once said, "You believe that? Well, you're in luck! The Easter Bunny will soon be hopping by to give you a basket of hollow chocolate candies. Enjoy."




Musicmystery -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 12:02:54 PM)

I don't want to spark another silly left/right food fight. But objectively....

I think Reagan was a very nice man who took some enticing ideas and ran with them simplistically. Those wanting easy answers embraced them without analysis.

People make mistakes, including leaders, and Reagan at least did what he believed was right (in contrast to Bush II's administration, who were motivated by arrogance and disregard for anything outside of their agenda). To ignore his mistakes is to fuel the current difficulties, particularly in the economic arena:

*turning the largest creditor nation in the world into the largest debtor nation
*leaving 25% of U.S. assets in foreign hands
*quadrupling the national debt
*promoting arms proliferation, particularly Star Wars
*ignoring the Constitution in the Iran/Contra scandal
*funding/arming Osama bin Laden in his zeal to fight the USSR
*convincing people our complex problems had simplistic solutions
*trickle-down economics, which merely widened the gap between rich and poor, reversing earlier progress
*missing the chance to get rid of TB, merely because it was "only" in 3rd world countries--it instead came back, in more dangerous strains
*ignoring the emergence of AIDS as merely an affliction of gays and drug users, losing precious time to contain the world wide outbreak
*cutting down more acres of trees in the U.S. than were cut in all the world's rain forests combined
*building roads into national forests, facilitating poaching
*cutting trees right to the border of national parks
*reversing/eliminating the Carter administration's energy conservation and alternative energy initiatives
*a blatant disregard for pollution control
*firing all the experience air traffic controllers at once, creating the current problem of mass retirements
*deregulation of banking and telecommunications--some benefits, yes, but a disregard for the complications
*deregulation of airlines, creating primarily problems

Others will debate this, of course--but to assign Reagan credit for the fall of the Soviet Union is to credit a passerby for a hurricane. Gorbachev's reforms and the workers of the USSR, particularly Poland's, deserve the real credit. Otherwise it was a race to see who could go bankrupt first.

Additionally, Reagan's embrace of the religious right, at a time when people like Jerry Falwell were spouting such absurd and hateful nonsense, scared the hell of out me--and motivated me to action.

I had been fiercely independent. I instead registered as a Democrat, and have voted Democrat ever since, believing then and now that the era of the reasonable Republican I could support had changed, replaced by something only the Democrats could hope to contain. I'd love to support a third party instead, but as long as the extremists push the Republican agenda, I have to remain a Democrat.

And this all started with Reagan.





pogo4pres -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 12:08:13 PM)

FR

Some one here needs a fucking history lesson, we overthrew the democratically elected prime minister of Iraq (Mohammad Mossedeq) in 1953 to reinstall the Pahlavi dynasty, after they were deposed by the people.  All because Mossedeq was nationalizing their oil industry.  Had we fucking been on the right side in that affair we could have prevented a shit load of problems in the Middle East, but noooooooooooooooooo, we had to support the "thug" because he was "our thug". 

To blame Carter for what is clearly Eisenhower's fuck up is utterly ridiculous, Truman was against Allen Dulles' then nascent CIA over throwing Mossedeq.  In the early 70's  Milhous ignored the analysts warnings that continued support of the Shah could lead to a radical revolution.  Those warnings were from many sources, but the most important were from the regional analysts for the oil companies.   I wonder if anyone remembers the 1973 OPEC embargo and the effect that had on the crap economy Carter ran into.   Another oil embargo in 1979 sure didn't help him, but from 1973 to 1977 what exactly did the Nixon/Agnew/Ford/Rockefeller regime do to correct the problems???   Can we say pretty much nothing?  (I knew you could)

WE as in the United States Of America are our own worst enemies in the middle east.  Apparently though we are too history ignorant to understand that basic fact.



Historically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ







Sanity -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 12:26:08 PM)


In spite of your highly partisan spin MM, his policies made him one of the most popular president we have ever had.




DesertSuperRat -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 12:30:37 PM)

Pogo, You mean "Iran", don't you? The Shah Reza Palavi was in Iran, not Iraq. You touch on an interesting pattern, though: The U.S. usually throws its weight behind the bad guys. Saddam, Noriega, Marcos, Somoza, Batista...it's why we so often get our asses waxed.

And Sanity, you are right. Very right. Reagan was/is very popular. What's that saying? Oh, yeah: "No one ever went broke under-estimating the tastes of the American public". Reagan pandered to the worst in us. And it worked...still does. My grandmother--who thought FDR was a God--actually voted for Reagan's reelection, even though he actually cut her Social Security. Slick. The U.S. of A. is, for all practical purposes, a nation of morons. And proud of it. Did you know we're a metric nation? Congress passed that a long time ago and it was never repealed. Reagan just canceled out the public education aspects because your typical American is too dense to handle it...or so he thought. Slap some wrenches on a Vette or a Cadillac and you'll see that our manufacturershave converted. No idiots, they.

Anyway, his schtick worked and people noticed. So that's where we are today. Buying stuff. And looking forward to buying more stuff.




TheHeretic -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 12:37:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I think Reagan was a very nice man who took some enticing ideas and ran with them simplistically.



Hmm. Thought provoking, Muse. Maybe there is something to those Reagan/Obama parallels the pundits are playing with.

Reagan was far from perfect. He said dumb things, made some bad decisions, appointed some jackasses, and got caught on some cloak and dagger. None of which changes his enduring stature and legacy as a leader in both the US and the rest of the world.

The renovated Reagan Library opens tomorrow, and we'll be heading down in the next few weeks. It doesn't sound like you'd want us to pick you up a magnet for your fridge, though.




Moonhead -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 12:42:19 PM)

As far as the economics fuck ups go, he set the ball rolling on encouraging US companies to cut costs by outsourcing as much of their workforce as they can, as well.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 12:50:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


I believe that Star Wars was the straw that ultimately broke the Soviet Unions back.


McDonalds, Levis jeans, KFC and other inexpensive readily available consumer goods were the straw that broke the camel's back.

Capitalism killed the soviet Union, not Star Wars.




DesertSuperRat -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 12:57:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I believe that Star Wars was the straw that ultimately broke the Soviet Unions back.

McDonalds, Levis jeans, KFC and other inexpensive readily available consumer goods were the straw that broke the camel's back.

Capitalism killed the soviet Union, not Star Wars.


I think it was the Trabant. Rolling rust-buckets, they now exist only as soil stains. It's the car in the Levis commercial where the kid says "you can trade them for a car."




Moonhead -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 12:58:46 PM)

Yes, but unless a specific cause that was solely Reagan's responsibility can be cited as the real cause, then Sanity will have to credit every President from Kennedy down, so who cares if the SDI just wasted billions on unworkable crap?




pahunkboy -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 8:43:29 PM)

His entire staff came from Goldman Sachs!


And if you think I only mean his royal highness-   Ronny- I also mean Barry, Georgy and Billy.




pahunkboy -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 8:57:04 PM)

Sick of the triple-cable-network, wall-to-wall coverage of the 'Centennial Celebration' of senile sociopath Ronald Reagan? Here is an overview of this over-rated dirt-bag's war on the poor and his crimes against humanity. --LRP
The massive (but under-reported) Reagan Administration corruption By Ray Dubuque 2008 Ronald Reagan's Criminal Administration: "By the end of his term, 138 Reagan administration officials had been convicted, had been indicted, or had been the subject of official investigations for official misconduct and/or criminal violations. In terms of number of officials involved, the record of his administration was the worst ever." ('Sleep-Walking Through History: America in the Reagan Years,' by Haynes Johnson, 1991. [Well, George W. Bush hadn't been installed in the 2000 coup, when Johnson penned his comments.] ...Despite their many public lies about the matter, it was eventually proven that the Sales of weapons to Iran, followed by illegal financial support of the Central American Contras were carried out with the knowledge of, among others, President Ronald Reagan, Vice President George Bush [See: Bush Son Had Dinner Plans With Hinckley Brother Before Shooting
], Secretary of State George P. Shultz, Secretary of Defense Caspar W. Weinberger, Director of Central Intelligence William J. Casey, and national security advisers Robert C. McFarlane and John M. Poindexter... Large volumes of highly relevant, contemporaneously created documents were systematically and willfully withheld from investigators by several Reagan Administration officials in an attempt to cover up the administration's extensive corruption.




outhere69 -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 9:09:32 PM)

-Signed the bill that legalized abortion in CA (before RvW)

Seeing how paranoid people are about overly intrusive government, overthrows of society, etc. I find it ironic that it's Reagan who sent about 1000 Nation Guard into Berkeley and instituted martial law.  And said "If they want blood, we'll give them blood."  Where were the 2nd amendment folks then?

-Raised taxes 11 times in his administration (take that, Norquist!)

The Soviet Union was tottering when he took office; we barely had to breathe on them for it to fall.  Sure wasn't worth the deficit.  He excoriated Carter for a deficit of $500 billion, IIRC, during his campaign.

Interest rates peaked about a year into his administration and were about 11% when he left.





Marini -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/6/2011 9:18:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

As far as the economics fuck ups go, he set the ball rolling on encouraging US companies to cut costs by outsourcing as much of their workforce as they can, as well.


When thinking about Ronnie Reagan's accomplishments, we must always include: that time period when companies began outsourcing as much of the workforce as possible.
[sm=applause.gif]

Ronnie "let's encourage companies to outsource" Reagan




Arpig -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/7/2011 2:10:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


I believe that Star Wars was the straw that ultimately broke the Soviet Unions back.

You are completely correct. Not only did it break the Soviets, that was what it was designed to do...it was never intended to actually produce a viable weapons system.




Moonhead -> RE: Reagan's 100th birthday: 10 defining moments (2/7/2011 3:21:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
You are completely correct. Not only did it break the Soviets, that was what it was designed to do...it was never intended to actually produce a viable weapons system.


I think that might be a hindsight rationale: a lot of the defence contractors who lost contracts because they couldn't make Heinlein, Pournelle and Niven's ideas work work even in strapped duck tests might disagree with that, sadly.

(It would be nice to think that nobody was so stupid they expected anything viable to emerge from the whole thing and it was just a scarecrow, but that wasn't how it was being talked about back in the day by people who should have known better...)




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