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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 11:16:22 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Maybe it’s a misunderstanding but it seems Moonhead is very wrong indeed. There was no “rampage” (colourful word that) through Palestine last year. The only significant conflict in recent years was Cast Lead in Gaza two years ago.

Mea culpa: that wasn't clear enough. The fuss* started in 2009, but it was early 2010 before the Kenyan screwed up the nerve to say a word about it, which led to the traditional accusations of antisemitism.

*(Hopefully a less "colourful" word for armed shock troops shooting civilians and in one instance attacking the red cross)

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Post #: 241

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 1:29:10 PM

Anaxagoras

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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Maybe it’s a misunderstanding but it seems Moonhead is very wrong indeed. There was no “rampage” (colourful word that) through Palestine last year. The only significant conflict in recent years was Cast Lead in Gaza two years ago.

Mea culpa: that wasn't clear enough. The fuss* started in 2009, but it was early 2010 before the Kenyan screwed up the nerve to say a word about it, which led to the traditional accusations of antisemitism.

*(Hopefully a less "colourful" word for armed shock troops shooting civilians and in one instance attacking the red cross)

You weren't clear enough? lol Honestly you're pretending to know more about the war than you do which in reality seems to be very little. Firstly the "Kenyan" you must be referring to Goldstone who is actually South African and well known to be such as he was involved in the Apartheid regime there. Secondly it was actually September 2009 when the report came out. He wasn't explicitely accused of anti-Semitism to any extend as far as I know - that seems to be a favourite theme of yours: pro-Israeli's using the accusation - like repeatedly demanding Lauckdawg apologise to you on the other thread, and even misrepresenting repeatedly what I was saying despite the fact I challenged you about it several times. Stop pretending as well that the UN wasn't extremely critical from the very outset - it was. The report itself was deeply flawed. The wording of the resolution assumed war crimes had been committed even before the investigation and three of the four man team had strongly condemned Israel before. The report repeated obvious lies such as Israel bombing a school and killing 43 when the UN had retracted that assertion as false, and it accepted Hamas' casulty figures without question. Then last September Hamas actually admitted the true figures which surprise surprise almost identically matched Israel. I suggest you try to reconcile your obvious contempt of Israel with the facts.

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Post #: 242

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 1:34:07 PM

Moonhead

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The Kenyan, I'm referring to is Obama, dear boy.

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Post #: 243

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 1:40:19 PM

Anaxagoras

Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The Kenyan, I'm referring to is Obama, dear boy.

That Kenyan who had nothing to do with the event or its investigation - perhaps you should be less opaque in future. Obama has been strongly critical of Israel almost since his inaugeration and even showed contempt toward Netanyahu on at least two occasions when they were meeting so your observation about Obama's nerve is hardly apt.

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Post #: 244

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 1:53:59 PM

Moonhead

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He didn't, in fact. (He's shown Netenyahu a lot less contempt than he displayed to Broon when he was over here.) He just made a few guarded comments that maybe the IDF should check who they were shooting at rather than assuming that everybody they saw in the disputed territories was Hamas, leading to a bit of a tantrum from the Israeli media. You'd think they'd be trying to keep him happy so that the foreign aid keeps coming instead of trotting out the jew bashing accusations, yet again...

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

Post #: 245

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 2:12:19 PM

Anaxagoras

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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
He didn't, in fact. (He's shown Netenyahu a lot less contempt than he displayed to Broon when he was over here.) He just made a few guarded comments that maybe the IDF should check who they were shooting at rather than assuming that everybody they saw in the disputed territories was Hamas, leading to a bit of a tantrum from the Israeli media. You'd think they'd be trying to keep him happy so that the foreign aid keeps coming instead of trotting out the jew bashing accusations, yet again...

Wrong again Moonhead. He humiliated Netanyahu on two occasions - such as this event: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7076431.ece - furthermore, the friendly US was or is actually spying on Israel as wikileaks revealed. Barak refused recently to grant senior members of Obama's admin access to Israeli generals who they have been trying to influence for over a year now re. Iran and other issues. You also seem to be suggesting Israel kill Palestinians without regard for their status as civilian or combatant, when in fact they killed less civilians than combatants in quite densely populated areas where conflict was taking place according to Hamas's terms.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 246

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 5:15:58 PM

Aneirin

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Define combatant in Israeli terms

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Post #: 247

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 5:44:06 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Define combatant in Israeli terms

Anything that moves, breathes or happens to get in the way of an Israeli bullet/rocket/missile.

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Post #: 248

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 5:55:14 PM

Anaxagoras

Posts: 3086
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This isn't really the right thread for discussion on Israel rather the Muslim Brotherhood but I'll answer these points briefly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Define combatant in Israeli terms

A silly leading question Anerin - Israel has to go where it has to go to fight when its citizens are assaulted. Combat is rarely if ever on Israel's terms - it is where ever the enemy hides himself: Hizbullah amongst villages in Lebanon etc. etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Define combatant in Israeli terms

Anything that moves, breathes or happens to get in the way of an Israeli bullet/rocket/missile.

That is exactly the sort of demonising stuff I would expect from someone that hates the place. There is no grey area, just black and white: Israel is to blame for everything and... well everything. Any weak criticism of Hamas is disingenuous for they are praised elsewhere. As Colonel Richard Kemp said to the UN in 2009: "It is the automatic, Pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong..."

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 2/19/2011 5:57:43 PM >

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Post #: 249

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 6:27:28 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

This isn't really the right thread for discussion on Israel rather the Muslim Brotherhood but I'll answer these points briefly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Define combatant in Israeli terms

A silly leading question Anerin - Israel has to go where it has to go to fight when its citizens are assaulted. Combat is rarely if ever on Israel's terms - it is where ever the enemy hides himself: Hizbullah amongst villages in Lebanon etc. etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Define combatant in Israeli terms

Anything that moves, breathes or happens to get in the way of an Israeli bullet/rocket/missile.

That is exactly the sort of demonising stuff I would expect from someone that hates the place. There is no grey area, just black and white: Israel is to blame for everything and... well everything. Any weak criticism of Hamas is disingenuous for they are praised elsewhere. As Colonel Richard Kemp said to the UN in 2009: "It is the automatic, Pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong..."

All nice and rhetorical that. Sadly the only accurate assertion is that this isn't the right thread for this conversation.

The thing is there are thousands of Palestinian and non-Israeli dead civilians to back up my suggestion Israel operates on a hair trigger 24/7.

Let's face it - shooting say an anti-personnel missile at a crowded mosque during evening prayer time*, or dropping a thousand lb bomb on an apartment unit full of civilians^ or engaging in war crimes as a matter of routine Statecraft and policy# are not the type of actions someone who holds life dear engages in.

How exactly does one demonise people who do that? Haven't they demonised themselves already? Shouldn't we be calling them terrorists, blood thirsty murderers or some such disparaging term?

*2009 Ibrahim al-Maqadna Mosque strike http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict#Accusations_of_war_crimes_on_the_part_of_the_Israel_Defense_Forces

^http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2148548.stm

# use of cluster bombs and white phosphorous in civilian areas, use of children and civilians as human shields, numerous massacres of civilians and individual murders, colonisation of land acquired by military means etc etc ...it's a long long list spanning several decades.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/19/2011 6:29:22 PM >

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Post #: 250

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 6:34:19 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Am I right or wrong in thinking if it were not for the fact that the Middle East is where the oil comes from, America would not give a shit what happens over there ?

I think you are wrong... we have been involved in Korea...where is the oil... we have been involved in Serbia...where is the oil...we were involved in Germany and other European countries...where is the oil...I could go on and on. Where the hell is the oil in Afghanistan… does that battle really help us secure oil? We have helped many governments over the years with no real benefit to ourselves.

Now I agree oil makes the conflicts in the middle east even more important but if that was really all we cared about then why do we support Israel? Would it have not been wise and expedient not to support them if all we cared about was oil?…No the oil argument does not stand up to history.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/19/2011 6:37:43 PM >

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Post #: 251

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 6:56:12 PM

Anaxagoras

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Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

This isn't really the right thread for discussion on Israel rather the Muslim Brotherhood but I'll answer these points briefly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Define combatant in Israeli terms

Anything that moves, breathes or happens to get in the way of an Israeli bullet/rocket/missile.

That is exactly the sort of demonising stuff I would expect from someone that hates the place. There is no grey area, just black and white: Israel is to blame for everything and... well everything. Any weak criticism of Hamas is disingenuous for they are praised elsewhere. As Colonel Richard Kemp said to the UN in 2009: "It is the automatic, Pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong..."

All nice and rhetorical that. Sadly the only accurate assertion is that this isn't the right thread for this conversation.

If that is the case then I wonder why you brought Israel up a few times on this thread and are responding to a fairly brief point with a post that is quite long and detailed.

quote:

The thing is there are thousands of Palestinian and non-Israeli dead civilians to back up my suggestion Israel operates on a hair trigger 24/7.

That is another extreme exaggeration. At most civilians 700 died in Gaza (assuming a tolal death toll of 1,400 which is questionable) in the 2009 war, and at most 700 died in Lebanon (accepting UN figures of 500 militants out of 1,200). However, it is likely to be significantly less than even that. Since 2004 when the Second Intifada died down thanks in part to the so called "Apartheid Wall", the figures are not much more than that. By contrast the US killed civilians in termsof five figures. Insurgents actually killed over 100,000 civilians by mid 2010 according to NGO Iraq Body Count. How about a little perspective - Israel fought two wars after being assaulted in different ways. In totality roughly 41,000 Arabs have died and 23,000 Israeli's in the conflict overall since around 1946. Its actually a relatively modest death toll when conventional wars are compared with it

quote:

Let's face it - shooting say an anti-personnel missile at a crowded mosque during evening prayer time*, or dropping a thousand lb bomb on an apartment unit full of civilians^ or engaging in war crimes as a matter of routine Statecraft and policy# are not the type of actions someone who holds life dear engages in.

How exactly does one demonise people who do that? Haven't they demonised themselves already? Shouldn't we be calling them terrorists, blood thirsty murderers or some such disparaging term?

*2009 Ibrahim al-Maqadna Mosque strike http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict#Accusations_of_war_crimes_on_the_part_of_the_Israel_Defense_Forces

^http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2148548.stm

# use of cluster bombs and white phosphorous in civilian areas, use of children and civilians as human shields, numerous massacres of civilians and individual murders, colonisation of land acquired by military means etc etc ...it's a long long list spanning several decades.

They used cluster bombs in 2006 - not since then. members of the IDF were honest enough to admit the cluster bombs were wrongly used but they were not illegal at the time. The white phospherous was used at too low an altitude in Gaza which was illegal. The IDF claim it was intended to illuminate at high altitudes but exploded at low altitudes in error. You can sneer as no doubt you will but error makes up a significant number of casulties in all wars. No we shouldn't be calling them such terms - what a hypocritical question when you defend Hamas which has publicly proclaimed in its media, with great pride BTW, that it uses women, children and the old for human shields to protect their activists.

We have had this very discussion before about the Ibrahim al-Maqadna monsue. The Goldstone report coverage of the event in question drew huge criticism in September 2009.
For an analysis of how the Goldstone team conducted itself check out a very detailed article which refers in detail to how the team treated the testimony over the attack on the Ibrahim al-Maqadma mosque http://imra.org.il/story.php3?id=45797 – not only did Goldstone ask a lot of incidental questions that were irrelevant but never once were witnesses challenged in any way! This was the same conduct for the other testimony too. Basically everything was taken at face value, and all evidence sourced by the small number giving testimonials on the opposite side was pretty much discounted. The piece then goes on to note a number of those killed were involved in combat or were members of terror groups based on Palestinian sources. The assertions are referenced. Thus it seems not all was innocent at the mosque, and it is a fitting example of they way Goldstone conducted itself.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 252

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 7:52:54 PM

tweakabelle

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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

Anaxagoras
what a hypocritical question when you defend Hamas which has publicly proclaimed in its media, with great pride BTW, that it uses women, children and the old for human shields to protect their activists.

I have never defended Hamas military activities - in fact I have condemned them several times. I have no idea where you got this from - sounds to me like you made it up, much like the rest of your post.

I have repeatedly said that both sides are as bad as each other.

Please produce evidence to support your claims or withdraw them.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/19/2011 7:55:13 PM >

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Post #: 253

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 8:04:21 PM

Anaxagoras

Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Anaxagoras
what a hypocritical question when you defend Hamas which has publicly proclaimed in its media, with great pride BTW, that it uses women, children and the old for human shields to protect their activists.

I have never defended Hamas military activities - in fact I have condemned them several times. I have no idea where you got this from - sounds to me like you made it up, much like the rest of your post.

Here you are suggesting I am a liar - I would like to ask what else have I made up? I assume nothing you can prove as you would have cynically jumped on it like you commonly do when you see a a weakness in any other argument.

quote:

I have repeatedly said that both sides are as bad as each other.

Please produce evidence to support your claims or withdraw them.

Well on this thread you actually represented Hamas in a pretty positive light as being better than Fatah "someone honest".

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
It might be a bit more subtle than that. It's not that democracy per se is an issue - it's more that those pesky Ay-rabs have a habit of electing the wrong people. So obviously they aren't ready for democracy yet.

Look at what happened in Gaza. Those damn Palestinians went and elected someone honest (!), someone they thought might actually represent their interests instead of ours. Like, how dare they? As if anyone cared what they think! Look at all the trouble the poor Israelis had to go to just to put that mess right.

This is nothing new. On other thread I also stated that you represented Hamas and Hizbullah as pretty much being resistance fighters rather than terrorists in your early posts on this forum. However, people like Master NJ20 and others criticised that and you moderated your stance by stating you also considered what Hamas etc. do as war crimes. However, even taking that into account, you still make virtually 100% of your attacks against Israel as all the posts on Israel prove.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 2/19/2011 8:05:43 PM >

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Post #: 254

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/19/2011 11:20:45 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Anaxagoras
what a hypocritical question when you defend Hamas which has publicly proclaimed in its media, with great pride BTW, that it uses women, children and the old for human shields to protect their activists.

I have never defended Hamas military activities - in fact I have condemned them several times. I have no idea where you got this from - sounds to me like you made it up, much like the rest of your post.

Here you are suggesting I am a liar - I would like to ask what else have I made up? I assume nothing you can prove as you would have cynically jumped on it like you commonly do when you see a a weakness in any other argument.

You were asked to produce evidence to back up your unqualified claim that I "defend Hamas". I am not calling you a liar yet. I note the absence of evidence thus far.

quote:

Well on this thread you actually represented Hamas in a pretty positive light as being better than Fatah "someone honest".

Is this the best 'evidence' that you can find?

There is a world of difference between making an observation that Hamas were seen by the Gaza electorate as more honest than Fatah, (Fatah are generally seen as a by-word for corruption) and defending Hamas' policies or activities. Besides, the sentence is clearly what I suspect the voters of Gaza were thinking - not my personal thoughts.

So still no evidence nor retraction of your false claim. Pathetic.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
It might be a bit more subtle than that. It's not that democracy per se is an issue - it's more that those pesky Ay-rabs have a habit of electing the wrong people. So obviously they aren't ready for democracy yet.

Look at what happened in Gaza. Those damn Palestinians went and elected someone honest (!), someone they thought might actually represent their interests instead of ours. Like, how dare they? As if anyone cared what they think! Look at all the trouble the poor Israelis had to go to just to put that mess right.

This is nothing new. On other thread I also stated that you represented Hamas and Hizbullah as pretty much being resistance fighters rather than terrorists in your early posts on this forum. However, people like Master NJ20 and others criticised that and you moderated your stance by stating you also considered what Hamas etc. do as war crimes. However, even taking that into account, you still make virtually 100% of your attacks against Israel as all the posts on Israel prove.

More dissembling. More fiction. No evidence.

You are unable to produce any evidence. Not a skerrig, not a whiff, not even a hint of evidence to back up your false claim. Why? Because there is no evidence to suggest I "defend Hamas" - I don't. I have condemned their war crimes, in particular the firing of missiles from Gaza into Israel many times. You know this perfectly well.

Any solution to the problems I have proposed has always included recognition, peace and security for Israel within its 1967 borders. I have made this point to you and others explicitly several times. To claim, as you did, the I defend Hamas or support it's military activities is totally false.

Furthermore as I have previously advised you of my position several times, I can only conclude you are being deliberately misleading. As you and I have previously agreed, that's pretty much the same thing as telling lies.

Then as you falsely demonise me, you have the audacity to call me a "hypocrite" for allegedly "demonising" Israel. Pure naked shameless HYPOCRISY.

So, I am now calling you a liar and a hypocrite, not hinting at it, not inferring it - I am stating it baldly: Anaxagoras you are a liar and a hypocrite. If you have any integrity, you will withdraw your baseless charges and apologise.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/19/2011 11:28:03 PM >

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Post #: 255

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/20/2011 12:12:12 AM

Aylee

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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

What would anyone learn about the contemporary politics in the West from studying the Bible? Not an awful lot I daresay though perhaps you might find some useful background. I suspect it might be more rewarding to look at what the Islamic world actually is than dealing with the issues through abstractions from Islamic texts.

Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey are all Islamic democracies. They aren't perfect democracies but which democracy is? (remember Florida, Jeb Bush ??) Turkey is a NATO member of long standing with (I think) US bases or facilities.

My experience is that people in the Islamic world experience the same difficulty understanding centuries of Western colonialism in their lands as some here seem to have understanding contemporary Arab/Muslim world. Education, cultural exchange and dialog, not xenophobia or Islamophobia is the answer.

http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/02/07/bangladeshi-rape-victim-flogged-to-death/

Really?

When is the last time the US flogged to death a victim of rape?

I have absolutely no understanding or respect for that kind of crap.

I really have no desire to relive the 12th century. I am of the opinion, "evolve or be irradiated." Nuke these fucking back-assward countries. I have no desire to coddle. Especially if it means that more young girls will be raped.

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I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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Post #: 256

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/20/2011 2:36:06 AM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
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When you make peace, we will make peace.

When you make war, we will make war.

Can't ask for much more.

T^T

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Post #: 257

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/20/2011 4:39:01 AM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No the oil argument does not stand up to history.

Butch

Right now, it`s standing up way better than the WMD argument.

I see the situation in Libya has worsened, with the army supporting Gaddafi.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12517327

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Post #: 258

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/20/2011 4:39:16 AM

truckinslave

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Joined: 6/16/2004
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The facts are these:

1. When Hamas is successful they kill Israeli civilians.

2. When the IDF screws up in some manner they kill civilians.

3. If the Arab nations in the Middle East disarmed to the level of sticks and stones they would be left in peace by Israel.

4. If Israel disarmed they would be would be slaughtered.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

Post #: 259

RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/20/2011 4:47:37 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/02/07/bangladeshi-rape-victim-flogged-to-death/

Really?

When is the last time the US flogged to death a victim of rape?

I have absolutely no understanding or respect for that kind of crap.

I really have no desire to relive the 12th century. I am of the opinion, "evolve or be irradiated." Nuke these fucking back-assward countries. I have no desire to coddle. Especially if it means that more young girls will be raped.

"Nuke these fucking back-assward countries" Seems an oxymoron in intself, wouldnt you say.

The point you miss, which was discussed on another thread, is that the flogging wasnt lawful and the perpertrators have been arrested. I cant see nuking the whole nation to be anything but an extremist reaction.

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 260

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