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Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 11:22:20 AM

leadership527

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OK, I'm reading yet another "honesty" thread over on FL and once again I am awestruck at the number of dominants who assert that they have never lied and/or never "broken their word" (whatever that means). So I want to broaden the question a bit. The following questions should be construed as "in your adult life... from the age of majority onwards wherever you happen to live..."

- Have there been times in your past where you've failed to measure up to your own ethical standards for yourself?
- In your mind, can you lie by telling the truth (in other words, is all deception lying)?
- In your mind, is there some special ritual that is required before it becomes "your word"?

For me, I count all knowing deception as "lying"... no matter the words I use... truthful or not. Anything else would just allow ethical holes I could drive trucks through. I also count "my word" as "any words that come out of my lips". There is no particular ritual that I need to perform or words I need to say in order to make something I've said be "my word". Then, aside from all the times that I'm perfectly fine having deceived someone (in fact, good leadership standards demand a certain amount of deception), there are also all the times I just plain failed to measure up ethically in one way or another.

This, I suspect, is partly why Carol and I are compatible, but I asked her how she feels about someone who looks her in the face and says something like "I never lie." Her answer was, "I back away slowly then flee at the earliest opportunity." That pretty much mirrors my thinking. Obviously though, the way we're seeing it isn't the norm in BDSM-land. So going with the assumption that the "I never lie" folks aren't lying, delusional, or perfect human beings, I have to assume I'm just not seeing the statements from the correct viewpoint. Can someone enlighten me?

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 11:26:24 AM

Aileen1968

Posts: 6062
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Everyone lies. Except for maybe this man.

Those who say they don't are...lying.

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RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 11:28:54 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

- Have there been times in your past where you've failed to measure up to your own ethical standards for yourself?

Yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

- In your mind, can you lie by telling the truth (in other words, is all deception lying)?

All deception is lying, yes. Whether doing so at a specific time is sensible or not depends both on the context and understanding the person to whom you'd be telling it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

- In your mind, is there some special ritual that is required before it becomes "your word"?

When I say it seriously.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

So going with the assumption that the "I never lie" folks aren't lying, delusional, or perfect human beings, I have to assume I'm just not seeing the statements from the correct viewpoint. Can someone enlighten me?

"I never lie." seems like a present-to-future comment. It's statistically possible. It would be interesting to ask the same people if they would also say that they have "never lied" (putting their entire past into the mix). And even that could, I suppose, be possible. Would we have a reason, other than the unlikelihood of it being true, to immediately presume they're being dishonest?

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 2/9/2011 11:29:43 AM >

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RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 11:29:25 AM

Ishtarr

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Joined: 4/30/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

- In your mind, is there some special ritual that is required before it becomes "your word"?

For me, I count all knowing deception as "lying"... no matter the words I use... truthful or not. Anything else would just allow ethical holes I could drive trucks through. I also count "my word" as "any words that come out of my lips". There is no particular ritual that I need to perform or words I need to say in order to make something I've said be "my word". Then, aside from all the times that I'm perfectly fine having deceived someone (in fact, good leadership standards demand a certain amount of deception), there are also all the times I just plain failed to measure up ethically in one way or another.

See that sounds SO refreshing to me Jeff...

The last man I accused of breaking his word/promises to me told me that he couldn't have broken his word, because even though he told me that he was going to do certain things, he had never actually formally promised me he'd do them.

I've never been able to wrap my head around the apparently magical hocus pocus that some people seem to need to transfer "something they say they're going to do" into "something they promise they're going to do"...

When I find out that people think that way, I always have to wonder: if saying that you're going to do something isn't enough to guaranty that you will -or will at least try as best you can- but a promise is needed to make the declaration of "saying you're going to do something" actually true, does that mean that ANYTHING you say to me that isn't a formal promise is a lie?

Edited to add: And I'm by no means perfect when it comes to keeping my word.
I've failed myself and others in the past, and though I hope to avoid it, I can imagine it will happen again in the future.
One thing I won't do though, is deny that something I said I'd do is a promise, just because I failed to live up to it.

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 2/9/2011 11:52:31 AM >

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RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 11:33:25 AM

LaTigresse

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Hell yes I've lied and I will continue to lie. I mean, telling someone to have a great weekend, with a smile on your face, when in truth you have to admit you would like the exact opposite for them........to me, that's a lie of sorts.

I have hugely high standards for myself so yes, there have been times I have failed to live up to those standards.

As for ritual before becoming 'my word'.........well I pretty much have to know I can follow through without a shadow of doubt, before I make it 'my word'. I try very hard to not make any sort of promise I cannot keep. I don't tell someone I love them, if I don't. I don't say I will do something, if there is a chance I can't or won't.

And while I believe that lying by omission is still a lie, I admit to doing it and will continue to do it. Why and how is dependent upon the who, what, where, factors. I may be a sadistic bitch but I don't ALWAYS like causing people pain. Especially emotionally. I am very very protective of the people in my life I love........even when it means protecting them from me.

There are other omissions, especially via the net. Again, it is not for my own benefit but for those I love.

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RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 11:38:12 AM

62704

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Joined: 1/16/2011
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Yes, I've failed to live up to my own ethical standards. Mine evolve, will likely continue to evolve. Though I'd like to think it's rare (it's too easy a pitfall to be gracious with oneself), I sometimes botch it. There are certainly things I've done in the past I'm not proud of. I like to think we're all capable of desiring more from and for ourselves than is easily attained. A man's reach should exceed his grasp, et cetera.

To me, there's a difference between lying and deception. I try to avoid both. But a surprise party wouldn't go over so well without deception, even if there wasn't a lie involved. That said, when I'm talking to someone I would like to consider a relationship with, I'll say things which may ruin my chances rather than lie or deceive. For the sake of simplicity, I make sure they're aware of that - and that I expect the same level of complete honesty from them. In the past six years, I can honestly say I've never deceived anyone I was dating, wanted to date, though there were numerous lies along the lines of 'I'll stop by the post office after work' and then having to stay late.

My ritual - There is no 'I promise/vow/perform magical handshake' required. That's a convenient excuse in my mind. "Oh, I had my fingers crossed."

edit: Damnit, I remembered a lie. Said I was going to do something, and couldn't follow through. Showcases the difference between a lie and a deceit as I see it, though.

< Message edited by 62704 -- 2/9/2011 11:54:05 AM >

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RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 11:58:10 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

- Have there been times in your past where you've failed to measure up to your own ethical standards for yourself?

Yes.

quote:

- In your mind, can you lie by telling the truth (in other words, is all deception lying)?

You would need to define deception to be able to answer that.

quote:

- In your mind, is there some special ritual that is required before it becomes "your word"?

Apart from saying it myself (which I suppose could be construed as a ritual), no.

quote:

So going with the assumption that the "I never lie" folks aren't lying, delusional, or perfect human beings, I have to assume I'm just not seeing the statements from the correct viewpoint. Can someone enlighten me?

I think what some people are speaking about is out and out lying, rather than omission. Also, there is a difference between the now and the then and some people have a belief in themselves that they won't lie... and then cannot uphold something they said.

I am seeing a difference between lying and breaking their word or promise though.

But I don't find it an incredible stretch to believe that some people really don't lie. But then I have pretty strong faith in humanity.

_____________________________

RC&dc

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RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 11:59:16 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
- Have there been times in your past where you've failed to measure up to your own ethical standards for yourself?

Yes.

quote:

- In your mind, can you lie by telling the truth (in other words, is all deception lying)?

You can lie by omitting the truth, absolutely.

quote:

- In your mind, is there some special ritual that is required before it becomes "your word"?

No, but if it is important, I may emphasize "My word" by saying so. This can be in situations such as having a number of folks depending on Me for whatever it is that I'm supposed to be doing. One of the ones that I use in particular is "barring emergencies" I'll have X done at Y time.

Going back to your first question, I look at Myself now as in comparison to when I was first a legal adult. Like everyone else, I did stupid stuff. (I still do stupid stuff at times, but hopefully less.) Along with maturing over the years, I've also had some particular experiences that made Me look at My integrity and who I wanted to be. What I wanted to strive for in My dealings with others and how I had to handle it when I came up short. The actual going back and saying, "I did this to you, which was wrong of Me" makes for a good impact in not wanting to repeat mistakes.

Does it make Me perfect? Not by a long shot. It does, however, make Me want to do better.

It also makes for some interesting discussions between MP and Myself:

"It's ok to be a few minutes late."

"No, it's not. I said we'd be there are seven."

_____________________________

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RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 12:00:55 PM

osf

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I'm in charge of what I meant and should have said, cause I said so

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RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 12:01:56 PM

FukinTroll

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I mean, telling someone to have a great weekend, with a smile on your face, when in truth you have to admit you would like the exact opposite for them........to me, that's a lie of sorts.

Yew fucker! You faked it the whole time?

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RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 12:04:00 PM

Lockit

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I've lied and I'm good at it. I just choose not to lie because I don't like to live with that lie, even a small one. BUT, if I want to lie... you can bet it's gunna be good! lol

I do believe you can be honorable and still tell an occasional lie that doesn't seem to effect another person in a negative manner. You live honorable and yet you do lie to the policeman that pulls you over going five miles above the speed limit or when you can't make an appointment or even when it means hurting someone with how awful pink looks on them. There are lies that do harm and lies that most likely won't do harm. I try to avoid a lie that would do harm, but I am not passed telling a lie, though most often I would not.

I won't lie to someone I care about or in personal relationships or about them. And I try real hard not to lie to myself.

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RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 12:30:11 PM

TotalDiscipline

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I lied..mostly to people I dislike
Now I just tell them what I think and find..there is no need to lie to those I dislike.
It is a bad habbit....but handy by times..sadly

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RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 12:40:00 PM

Aynne88

Posts: 3873
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I always tell the truth....even when I lie.

.

Sorry..anytime I can quote Pacino as Tony Montana, I can't pass it up.

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RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 12:47:48 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Would we have a reason, other than the unlikelihood of it being true, to immediately presume they're being dishonest?

Actually, I don't presume that it's necessarily dishonest. If I only had one possible explanation, I wouldn't have bothered with this post.

But off the cuff, when a person presents an image of themselves which flies in the face of what I understand to be "reality" then it's predictable that I'm going to have some questions about either the portrayal or my understanding of reality. In my reality, human beings are flawed. Someone who presents themselves as perfect becomes suspect.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to NihilusZero)

Post #: 14

RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 12:58:35 PM

leadership527

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Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
actually true, does that mean that ANYTHING you say to me that isn't a formal promise is a lie?

It means it's potentially a lie since the speaker isn't attesting to it's veracity. This is exactly why I don't have any secret squirrel handshake that goes along with "my word". I'm more interested in my credibility than my honesty.

I've failed myself and others in the past, and though I hope to avoid it, I can imagine it will happen again in the future.
Yeah, I hate to confirm your fears, but that's probably true. On the bright side, if you're like me, those failings will get substantially less frequent as you age. In my 40's I'm down to about 1 a decade.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 15

RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 1:06:02 PM

leadership527

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Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
It also makes for some interesting discussions between MP and Myself:

"It's ok to be a few minutes late."

"No, it's not. I said we'd be there are seven."

The amusing thing is that while I'm not all that focused on telling the truth at all times, I'd be in the "I said we'd be there by seven" camp. That's the kind of statement that I'd do my best to honor but wouldn't fall on my sword if we got there at 7:03. But I certainly wouldn't be saying it's "OK" right out of the gate.

Like you, however, I find that my actual ethical standards for myself exceed my ability to meet them. I hope that is always true personally. As you say, it inspires me to do better. I get flawed and trying to do better. That aligns well with my understanding of the human condition. I'm a bit less clear on "perfectly honorable".

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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Post #: 16

RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 1:10:53 PM

leadership527

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Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
I won't lie to someone I care about or in personal relationships or about them. And I try real hard not to lie to myself.

So not trying to pick on you Lockit, but you're the closest so far to the "never lie" camp.

Does the above statement mean that you have never in your adult life mislead someone you cared about for purposes that they themselves would not approve of (so discounting surprise birthday parties and other white lies). In other words, you've never deceived a partner in a way you later regretted and found ethically questionable or just plain wrong?

As NZ suggested, I'm trying to understand the exact scoping on your word "won't".

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Lockit)

Post #: 17

RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 1:19:40 PM

coookie

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I think it is human nature to lie .. to get out of trouble, to spare someones feelings, .. um there are probably more reasons though they escape me.

I try to be honest but i don't always succeed. At times it confounds my desire to not cause anyone pain.

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Post #: 18

RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 1:22:07 PM

Lockit

Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
I won't lie to someone I care about or in personal relationships or about them. And I try real hard not to lie to myself.

So not trying to pick on you Lockit, but you're the closest so far to the "never lie" camp.

Does the above statement mean that you have never in your adult life mislead someone you cared about for purposes that they themselves would not approve of (so discounting surprise birthday parties and other white lies). In other words, you've never deceived a partner in a way you later regretted and found ethically questionable or just plain wrong?

As NZ suggested, I'm trying to understand the exact scoping on your word "won't".

No, I won't lie to someone I am involved with. Why would I need to? I can find a way to get through a gift/party idea that tends to include something to the effect of... it's your birthday, don't ask questions. I lied to one man I was involved with way back when I was about twenty one. That broke my heart so badly that I felt I had to lie to protect him, that I have had to live with that lie since that day. I would not do it again. I protected him from me and my illness and may have ruined my happiness. It would have been better to tell him the truth, I was sick, something unknown and must be bad and I didn't want him hurt with it. I lied to another when he decided I was worthy of flying around rooms without wings... because he insisted I was cheating and I lied and said I did so he would leave me alone. These things were many years ago and I simply will not lie even for the fun of something.

Now if someone had a gun and said... say you love me baby... I might. lol But no, I am not going to lie to someone I care about. It may not be easy, but I don't need it to be.

Wanted to add... I will lie when doing investigations or in trying to prove something to get someone else in position to prove a case I have. You betcha! lol

< Message edited by Lockit -- 2/9/2011 1:29:50 PM >

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RE: Never Lied? - 2/9/2011 1:40:14 PM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
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quote:

I've never been able to wrap my head around the apparently magical hocus pocus that some people seem to need to transfer "something they say they're going to do" into "something they promise they're going to do"...

What about if a person says.."We are going to walmart later to buy groceries" and they change their mind..wouldn't that still be considered a lie if someone was so inclined to read everything in a stringently literal sense?

I don't have a ritual myself but I do reserve the right to change my mind no matter what I've said..at least as much as I can think of at this moment.

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