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RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/10/2011 9:17:09 PM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
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Am I the only one who finds it strange that they've talked marriage and she doesn't even know his profile name? Well, didn't until he posted and gave us the link to his thread.

I don't see anything unusual about the number of mental health professionals involved - most therapists will NOT see someone for both individual AND marital therapy. And many primary docs will not prescribe psychotropics - you need a psychiatrist for that (no therapy involved).

Reading her version, and reading his version, I am inclined to think she is overreacting a bit, and wonder if she is brushing her hair before sex/play, to remove loose strands. Also, some examination of these hairs is in order - are there roots attached? He doesn't want to rip her hair out, he wants to pull it. She thinks he is pulling it out, but is he?

Some random thoughts from the armchair:

Part of the overreaction may be her holding onto the idea of being so attractive to other men, which results in a one-foot-in/one-foot-out type of commitment.

He is feeling her ambivalence.

Her overreaction is triggering bad memories of someone else.

They clearly are NOT communicating on this issue, as she is focused on him wanting to pull her hair OUT, and his thread is focused on pulling her hair, but not OUT.

Cali

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(in reply to January)

Post #: 21

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/11/2011 4:45:35 AM

angelikaJ

Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Am I the only one who finds it strange that they've talked marriage and she doesn't even know his profile name? Well, didn't until he posted and gave us the link to his thread.

I don't see anything unusual about the number of mental health professionals involved - most therapists will NOT see someone for both individual AND marital therapy. And many primary docs will not prescribe psychotropics - you need a psychiatrist for that (no therapy involved).

Reading her version, and reading his version, I am inclined to think she is overreacting a bit, and wonder if she is brushing her hair before sex/play, to remove loose strands. Also, some examination of these hairs is in order - are there roots attached? He doesn't want to rip her hair out, he wants to pull it. She thinks he is pulling it out, but is he?

Some random thoughts from the armchair:

Part of the overreaction may be her holding onto the idea of being so attractive to other men, which results in a one-foot-in/one-foot-out type of commitment.

He is feeling her ambivalence.

Her overreaction is triggering bad memories of someone else.

They clearly are NOT communicating on this issue, as she is focused on him wanting to pull her hair OUT, and his thread is focused on pulling her hair, but not OUT.

Cali

Cali, but in her post she states she loves to have her hair pulled:
"Don't get me wrong: I LOVE having my hair pulled. Like others have said in previous posts, it sends me into subspace immediately and turns me on more quickly than anything. But I hate having my hair pulled out because it hurts so badly and makes me feel like my limit is being ignored. Meanwhile, he's arguing that it's not really that much hair and that he has been more careful not to do it very frequently."

Even after reading his post on the other thread I can't but help wonder if he just isn't getting that at times he is pulling too hard.

I am someone who sheds a lot.
I love it when my Master pulls my hair...or does anything with my hair.
I would never mistake shedding for having my hair pulled out.
It seems to be that for her the issue is one of pain and not how many hairs are left on the floor.
Maybe he is simply grabbing too small a section sometimes or maybe in the throes of passion he pulls too hard.

We don't know that.
What we do know is that ordinarily she loves to have her hair pulled and sometimes he does it in a "bad pain" way.

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(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 22

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/11/2011 4:54:07 AM

LillyBoPeep

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having your hair pulled out feels totally different than just having it pulled on. it's a sharp biting pain, and she mentioned pain in her OP. you can pull hair pretty hard without pulling it out if that's your goal. but if your goal IS to pull the hair out (like if he's subconsciously bothered by how much attention she gives her hair) then you can do that pretty easily, too.
i read his post, too, and it also seemed to me like he just wasn't getting it, or was determined to explain her issue away as vanity or misunderstanding. maybe the misunderstanding really is on his part.

(in reply to angelikaJ)

Post #: 23

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/11/2011 5:30:40 AM

lizi

Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
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This whole thing is kind of twilight zone-ish. The OP comes to talk about something that she 'thinks' is the problem in her relationship. The Dom involved comes in and leaves a connection for a previous thread, but doesn't say a word about her current posting. They have counselors etc as well - why the heck aren't they talking to each other? I don't get that part. Why can't two people who want to get married talk to each other to discern what's going on? Why would they expend the effort here and in a third party's office rather than effectively just saying yo....what's up with the hair stuff? This round-about approach is about as effective as passing notes. I love these message boards and what they can do for people, but really? Anyone want a square wheel? Or hey, I'm hungry, lets go drive to the Chipotle in the next state but ignore the one that is down the street because I'm all about wasting time and gas and I like staying hungry as long as possible.

About the hair pulling itself- if hair is pulled out by the roots it can and will stop growing back. The person will have permanent damage, this is not a maybe situation, it is what happens. Permanent damage is not nice or responsible. I had my hoo hoo waxed a couple of times and now have several small, permanent bald patches up in front from having the hair ripped out by the roots. Which is fine with me, less maintenance overall, and it's something I was told upfront when I had the procedure.

Here's the thing, if the Dom involved in this thread doesn't want to be taking his gf/wife/whoever around in public and have her look like a Barbie that was in the hands of a 3 year old, or a mental patient from an old movie, he might want to consider how her appearance will reflect upon himself. Most people want their partner to be well groomed and attractive in public and private. In the end he's the one looking at her too. I can't think that the sparse hair or colander-look is the most becoming one she's got to offer.

Plus it's disturbing to think that he is aware that it happens and chooses to keep doing it when she's SAID she doesn't want the hair pulled out. That is non-consensual abuse no matter how you dice it and it needs to be addressed. Whatever the reason is that he's doing it, at this point he's aware of it so it's not accidental anymore. It's wrong to damage your toys and consent issues are never to be toyed with. It seems like a trivial issue in some ways but what it boils down to is that he's doing something she doesn't want him to do and he continues. That's never right no matter if we're talking about hair or whatever. One of the biggest fights I had in my marriage was about clean towels, stupid subject that boiled down to some basic misconceptions that we cleared up and never had to revisit again. A problem area is rarely only about that subject, there's usually something underneath that needs to be addressed.

(in reply to stephiegirl)

Post #: 24

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/11/2011 5:57:41 AM

lizi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stephiegirl

So he feels like I am putting restrictions on what he wants to do while he's in the throes of passion (my phrase, not his...I can't remember his exactly). And he also said that knowing that he can't pull my hair as hard as he'd like makes him think about pulling other women's hair. That's where the session ended and he's been sick since then. My recent insomnia also makes me ruminate over this but I don't think it would be fair to make him talk to me about it at 5 a.m. when he has to work in the morning.

Something was nagging at me and I decided to go back and read the OP's statements again. The above portion is disturbing. The Dom is feeling that her having a limit is "putting restrictions on what he wants to do"....yes, that's what limits are. So he doesn't have free rein to do as he likes and now that is obsessing him to the point where he doesn't want to get married? That doesn't say great things about a future with him and honestly I wouldn't let this guy tie me up.

Also, now that he feels that he can't pull his partner's hair as hard as he'd like he'd like to go pull other women's hair...? Wtf? Damage is damage no matter who you do it to. So if one person says no then you go find another to do it to? Either statement doesn't seem to point to a person who is in control of themselves and who understand that the Dominant position isn't just one of doing what you like, it's about responsibility to the people under you (literally) as well.

(in reply to stephiegirl)

Post #: 25

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/11/2011 6:42:36 AM

LillyBoPeep

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it's like pulling the hair is the fetish and is more important the person the hair is attached to.
since she doesn't want her hair pulled out, he wants to subject someone else to that. that's a little creepy to me.

(in reply to lizi)

Post #: 26

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/11/2011 7:50:36 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stephiegirl

After hearing him in our last therapy session, I believe that this "something" was triggered by the most recent time I talked to him about a hard limit I've drawn--having my hair ripped out of my scalp. This has been an issue with us from the beginning of our relationship, and when I showed him the ball of hair and told him that this was unacceptable to me, his face fell and he was at a loss as to how to act.

Ripped out???? so he grabbing your hair with the INTENT of pulling it out??? or is this just hair that comes out because of the grabbing of hair?

quote:

Don't get me wrong: I LOVE having my hair pulled. Like others have said in previous posts, it sends me into subspace immediately and turns me on more quickly than anything. But I hate having my hair pulled out because it hurts so badly and makes me feel like my limit is being ignored. Meanwhile, he's arguing that it's not really that much hair and that he has been more careful not to do it very frequently. He sought advice about it on CollarMe--maybe some of you heard about it then.

yeah... I read his thread... and frankly... pull the hair and hair will come out... the best you can hope for was the pony tail ... but even then... pull on that... hair will break and pull from the scalp... it just might not end in his hand is all.

quote:

At this point, I think that this impasse may destroy our relationship for good. I think we would both agree that we're compatible in nearly every other way except for me having this limit, but the fact that this is the one thing I refuse (well, the one thing I refuse that he really wants) has grown in his mind and I don't know if he can move beyond it.

I think you are deluding yourself....... On the assumption that he is NOT pulling your hair with the INTENT to pull it out..... I think he is right to have doubts! Fuck... I would be running away but fast!!!!

.... one last comment.... if you can't stand the heat... get the fuck out of the kitchen!!!

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 2/11/2011 7:54:42 AM >

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(in reply to stephiegirl)

Post #: 27

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/11/2011 7:54:26 AM

lizi

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Joined: 2/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

it's like pulling the hair is the fetish and is more important the person the hair is attached to.
since she doesn't want her hair pulled out, he wants to subject someone else to that. that's a little creepy to me.

Either that or I'm wondering if he's fixated on the fact that she said no. Being told to not do something so he'll go out and find the one who won't tell him no- that's the part that's causing me to pause. I don't know the guy and sure can't say what he's like, but it reminds me of a 2 year old who throws the instant tantrum after being told no and then all the kid wants to do is whatever was forbidden to him. I'm trying really hard not to jump to conclusions, but I have to admit it's freaking me out a bit to think that the Dom being discussed really doesn't like being told no so much that since she did it -he now isn't sure about getting married and other women are looking attractive because possibly they wouldn't tell him no. I'm not sure it's about the hair, it seems to be about her saying no and his inability to accept that from what the OP said in the post I quoted previously.

I know that's how some people roll with the consent thing, the s type gives up their voice and ability to say no. Ok, I get it. It's a decision that those two people arrive at. It's just uncomfortable for me to have this particular guy say in effect that if he can't have the whole ball of wax (even though what he wants is damaging) then he doesn't want any of it and he's thinking about finding it elsewhere even though it will still damage the other person.
Really?

I'm ready and willing to be proven wrong....

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

Post #: 28

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/11/2011 8:19:10 AM

IceDemeter

Posts: 84
Status: offline

FR~

I'm getting the impression that they both realize that this "issue" coming to the forefront is just a sign of something deeper - and that they're trying the counselling and even coming here for opinions since they either don't know what the "something deeper" is, or don't want to confront it.

His post made it seem that there was not a lot more than normal shedding going on, but the sentence that really stood out to me was along the lines of "this is the only thing she refuses to surrender control to me on". To me, it almost looks like he's seeing this as her keeping a part of herself out of the relationship, and he's not comfortable with that. I could understand him backing away from the marriage idea if this is the case.

Her posts make it seem like he's deliberately pulling out handfuls (extremely painful, and potentially harmful). If this is the case, then they need to discuss the motivation behind it. He needs to figure out if he's doing it because he's a sadist and that is something that really works for him, if he's doing it because he wants to do damage and make her less attractive to other men, if he's doing it to try to force the issue of her handing control of this area over to him, or if there is some other reason.

The comment about it making him think about other women gives me the feeling that he is hurt by her not allowing him control over her hair, and is trying to hurt her back. Not very mature, but likely with enough truth to it that they are both taking this seriously. If he truly feels that she's not willing to give all of herself to the relationship, and he knows that he needs a relationship with 100% given - well, it's a good thing that they're checking it out before the wedding...

(in reply to lizi)

Post #: 29

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/11/2011 9:51:02 AM

windchymes

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I think he just got some cold feet and that was the best lame excuse he could come up with.

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(in reply to IceDemeter)

Post #: 30

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/11/2011 10:26:31 AM

stephiegirl

Posts: 4
Joined: 12/7/2010
Status: offline

Hi, I'm back. Thanks again for everyone weighing in on our little problem. I expected a range of responses and definitely got them.

We both saw my therapist last night and came to the conclusion that I was forcing this issue and selfishly needing an answer VERY SOON about whether we were going to get married or not. Why was I doing that? Short answer: I was depressed, anxious, and sleep-deprived and shouldn't be allowed to post things on public forums at 5 a.m. in the morning. Ugh.

He said he was sad about the way I portrayed him on here, like he was a monster or something. I'm sad too, and more than a little embarrassed. This week would have gone so much better if he and I had been able to debrief after therapy on Monday, but like I said, he was sick and just wanted to get plenty of sleep, so we couldn't talk like we normally do and I couldn't get the clarity and reassurance I needed. We do ordinarily communicate very well with each other, I'm just impatient about wanting answers right away while he wants time to figure things out. And when I'm anxious and not sleeping, I lost touch with how things really are. The reality is that we love each other very much and want to figure out what's best for us. That doesn't mean we need to decide if we're getting married or not in the next 2 days.

So yeah, we do need to talk more about this with each other and will continue to do so. But I've exhausted us both with my anxiety, so we're going to just enjoy each other's company and give each other time to figure out what we really want. And I am going to take measures to get more sleep at night, because I slept for 8 hours last night and feel much much better and more clear-headed about everything. I feel as though Thursday was a real low point for me and I've turned a corner. And I'm grateful that my Master has been so patient with me and endures my crazy periods.

But thanks everyone for your diverse perspectives. We still have some things to work out, obviously. Having a range of responses perhaps gives us a better idea of what others think, but we will be working these things out for ourselves. :)

(in reply to windchymes)

Post #: 31

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/11/2011 12:16:28 PM

kalikshama

Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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Glad you're feeling better; I too am a mess when sleep deprived.

But inquiring minds want to know - are you experiencing normal shedding or is he yanking out your hair?

(in reply to stephiegirl)

Post #: 32

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/11/2011 12:58:51 PM

January

Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
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Stephie,

I'm glad you wrote back! Here's what you said a few days ago,

quote:

...this summer and in early fall we were loving living together and both optimistic about the prospect of getting married. He was even shopping for engagement rings!

and now you say:

quote:

We both saw my therapist last night and came to the conclusion that I was forcing this issue and selfishly needing an answer VERY SOON about whether we were going to get married or not.

Last summer he wanted to marry you. Six months go by, and he suddenly finds you are not his fantasy slave, so he backs away from marriage. He tells you this is your fault because you don't like your hair ripped out. Yesterday, you go to a therapist with him, and someone (I assume it's him) tells you that you are selfish. The relationship hiccups are--again--according to him, your fault.

How can a rational person can come to the conclusion you are being impatient about marriage? Forcing the issue? You've been discussing marriage for more than six months! Why should your anxiety be something you have to apologize to him about? He is the creator of your insecurity, through his constant gamesmanship.

I believe you should see your therapist alone. You need to process the pros and cons of this relationship, and your expectations of it, without his outside influence. I'm getting a bad, bad feeling about your future with him.

January

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(in reply to stephiegirl)

Post #: 33

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/11/2011 4:00:03 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stephiegirl
He said he was sad about the way I portrayed him on here, like he was a monster or something. I'm sad too, and more than a little embarrassed.

For the record, I don't think you portrayed him like a monster. The response you got was a fairly typical "bad dom" response -- I'd call it "normal for CM".

quote:

so we're going to just enjoy each other's company and give each other time to figure out what we really want.

Frequently the best play ever. Besides, if you two are really thinking in terms of "a lifetime" then there's no rush. There's no award for being the domliest/slaviest the fastest, but there is a substantial penalty for pushing too far, too fast. Actual trust, respect, and knowledge take actual time to build. They are worth the investment in my opinion.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to stephiegirl)

Post #: 34

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/12/2011 7:12:39 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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Using fast reply feature:

When I first started in the relationship with my Lord, I would lose a lot of hair whenever he pulled my hair. I would come out in big clumps in the shower, in his hand, etc. Mostly, it was just hair that I was going to lose anyway and him pulling sped up the process. After almost 6 years together, I rarely have large clumps of hair coming out when he pulls on it. He likes pulling hair, I like having hair pulled, one of the consequences is that hair will fall out as a result.

On another note, I have Social Anxiety Disorder and had Major Depressive Disorder Severe in the past. When I am anxious and stressed I lose more hair... my hair falls out easier. If you are on any medication, it could make your hair fall out easier.

For me it is real simple, lose a little hair or lose the most amazing relationship I have ever had. Really it is a no brainer for me, shave me bald and I will still be as happy as I have ever been.

Knight's Kyra

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(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 35

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/13/2011 7:22:56 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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I have to say, that a guy who wanted to marry me six months ago, who is now back pedaling as fast as he can would make my anxiety issues sky rocket also. The fact that he is back pedaling says to me he's looking for an excuse to not get married.

I would advise the op to decide for herself, without communicating it to him, how long she is willing to wait for him to decide. Because it is wrong to keep her on the hook indefinitely. At some point she needs to say "fish or cut bait". I've known women who waited ten years and never got the promised relationship. They all regretted not getting out a lot sooner when they could still have found someone who wanted to marry them and have a family with them. Biological clocks do have a point where it's too late. And when you get to that point, the guy usually moves on and marries some younger woman, IME.

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Post #: 36

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/13/2011 10:31:18 AM

LillyBoPeep

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Joined: 12/29/2010
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hopefully that's not just a "lets wrap this up nicely" response, after which he went back to pulling out her hair.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 37

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/13/2011 11:45:13 AM

FukinTroll

Posts: 6277
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Lilly, you astonish me most every time I read your posts. Wow, what insight from such a young beautiful girl.

OP... and pretty much everyone else too.

WIITWD doesn't have this magical cloud of fairy dust obscuring it from the non-believers. It is just as mundane, and important as the every day nilla stuff. It is wants vs needs.
I want to cook, she needs to clean to feel her worth in the dynamic... ooohhh yin an yang.
I need to tie her up, it's muh tingly kink, she wants to be tied up. Yummy... yin an yang.
It is so lovely when want X is fulfilling need Y. It's even more tingly and yummy when want X is fulfilling want Y. However the need catering to the want is really crucial to nilla or kink.

When you take want or need X and it does not get all yin an yang in the dynamic it is going to be a point of contention that could lead to the disintegration of the dynamic/relationship. I vehemently expound "Temet Nosce" to this point--->

cuz it is just silly to engage in any relationship or dynamic unsure of who you are, what your needs may be or even what your wants are. You cannot be the dream D or /s without knowing all the lil things that are going to ground you in your identity and form the stability of your relationship/dynamic.

Hair pulling; your kink and twink.
Snatching you bald: His kink or twink.
Not compatible to the point of ruination... priceless.

YMMV
SLURP!

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(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

Post #: 38

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/13/2011 11:47:17 AM

sexyred1

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(in reply to FukinTroll)

Post #: 39

RE: Limits vs. Needs - 2/13/2011 4:13:27 PM

LillyBoPeep

Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

Lilly, you astonish me most every time I read your posts. Wow, what insight from such a young beautiful girl.

i wonder if i'll kill any brain cells with all this swooning.
tis mutual, Mr. Troll -- you have an excellent brain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

OP... and pretty much everyone else too.

WIITWD doesn't have this magical cloud of fairy dust obscuring it from the non-believers. It is just as mundane, and important as the every day nilla stuff. It is wants vs needs.

So true -- many people, vanilla or kink aside, misconstrue wants with needs. one thing that's interesting about a power exchange relationship is that sometimes you get to come face to face with what your needs REALLY are. many people never have that experience, or they're so busy seeing through the lens of their own wants, that they can't understand another person's genuine needs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll
cuz it is just silly to engage in any relationship or dynamic unsure of who you are, what your needs may be or even what your wants are.

SO TRUE.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll
Hair pulling; your kink and twink.
Snatching you bald: His kink or twink.
Not compatible to the point of ruination... priceless.

LOL (solemnly =p)

(in reply to FukinTroll)

Post #: 40

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