RE: Why a wall street ? Why ?

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MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 2:29:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers The stock exchanges are not used for start-ups. Google, Yahoo. Intel, Microsoft, name them...did NOT go to wall street for start-up capital. Where did they go for their startup capital? What was the incentive for their investors? A good idea, (business plan) and education. Credit cards, personal debt...you name it. The incentive for their investors is supposed to be high school material...the great and glorious marketplace. The invisible hand of so-called creative destruction. It's destruction alright...of our retirement funds and the hands...are not invisible at all. The founder of Fed Ex got a grade of C on his business plan...said it wouldn't fly, as it were. Well we saw how much the 'experts' in business schools really knew. Wow !! Oh and BTW, just for good measure. You can work your ass off on say the oil platforms or coal mines, get overtime and risk your life but make real good money and pay a federal tax of 35%. I however understand that America has its real social and economic values in order because as a swashbuckling, capitalist, invest something much more important than your life...my money and while on the golf course and after only 1 year of long term [sic] capital gains...pay only15% federal tax. You rich yet ?

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 2:41:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: joether I just ask them to explain the correct defination of 'Selling Short'. You know, the process where you buy high, sell low, and make a profit? Well, we did actually agree for once.... up to here, unless you are being sarcastic. Profiting at Short selling is no different than profiting at any other investing, buy low, sell high. Its just the timing that is different...you sell before you buy. Come on, you know more than you articulate here. Short selling doesn't begin with buying or selling, it starts with borrowing stock. Then you sell it immediately based on your speculation that the price will fall. If and when it does, you buy it back and pay it back, you keep the difference. Which is exactly what I said in far fewer words.

mnottertail -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 2:43:43 PM)
but you can just option it so, theres that, and then you can etf and derivatives, and short the box and ............................speculate.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 2:45:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers The stock exchanges are not used for start-ups. Google, Yahoo. Intel, Microsoft, name them...did NOT go to wall street for start-up capital. If you think they got any more than a few thousand dollars for legal fees, a web site (in some cases) and paper and ink from personal sources youre way out of it. They got their real start through venture capitalists. Now what is the primary goal of a venture capitalist in funding a startup? TAKING THE VENTURE PUBLIC....."WALL STREET". Without that incentive, capital formation for risky ventures would be nearly impossible, and outrageously expensive when possible.

MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 2:54:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: joether I just ask them to explain the correct defination of 'Selling Short'. You know, the process where you buy high, sell low, and make a profit? Well, we did actually agree for once.... up to here, unless you are being sarcastic. Profiting at Short selling is no different than profiting at any other investing, buy low, sell high. Its just the timing that is different...you sell before you buy. Come on, you know more than you articulate here. Short selling doesn't begin with buying or selling, it starts with borrowing stock. Then you sell it immediately based on your speculation that the price will fall. If and when it does, you buy it back and pay it back, you keep the difference. Which is exactly what I said in far fewer words. Well ok willbeur, but in short-selling, I do no buying at all for 'investment' purposes, it is repaying a debt.

Termyn8or -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 3:02:01 PM)
"Its just the timing that is different...you sell before you buy." Sure, but the money does not go where it is supposed to. If I were to play, that's how I would play. Thing is also, too much shorting going on would mean that there is less actual investment capital. But then big money can influence the market one way or the other, it really doesn't matter. With enough money you can buy one company and short it's competitor. With enough money you can make a quite measurable effect, which is basically manipulation of the market by "artificial" forces. With trillions in the bank, I might play, but I would do so because I have the edge. Having somewhat less, I want no part of the game. T^T

MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 3:03:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers The stock exchanges are not used for start-ups. Google, Yahoo. Intel, Microsoft, name them...did NOT go to wall street for start-up capital. If you think they got any more than a few thousand dollars for legal fees, a web site (in some cases) and paper and ink from personal sources youre way out of it. They got their real start through venture capitalists. Now what is the primary goal of a venture capitalist in funding a startup? TAKING THE VENTURE PUBLIC....."WALL STREET". Without that incentive, capital formation for risky ventures would be nearly impossible, and outrageously expensive when possible. Start ups are expensive and are still starting up all of the time on...private capital and I don't care the risk. But read an earlier post and the history of these start-up principals. The founder of Seagate quit a very good job at IBM and mortgaged his house. Many use credit cards, friends and family. Even when he got some real venture money...he could not use it to pay off his house. His first check from the sale of his stock after going public, then paid the mortgage. Wall street has never to my knowledge...ever financed any start-up company.There have been many companies that grew to be huge multi-national firms...without ever going public...needing wall street at all. Koch $98 billion...private. Heinz...private for 80 years. There are lists of dozens of huge firms...still private.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 3:09:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: joether I just ask them to explain the correct defination of 'Selling Short'. You know, the process where you buy high, sell low, and make a profit? Well, we did actually agree for once.... up to here, unless you are being sarcastic. Profiting at Short selling is no different than profiting at any other investing, buy low, sell high. Its just the timing that is different...you sell before you buy. Come on, you know more than you articulate here. Short selling doesn't begin with buying or selling, it starts with borrowing stock. Then you sell it immediately based on your speculation that the price will fall. If and when it does, you buy it back and pay it back, you keep the difference. Which is exactly what I said in far fewer words. Well ok willbeur, but in short-selling, I do no buying at all for 'investment' purposes, it is repaying a debt. ROFL. Are you just being an ass for the sake of being an ass? When you borrow something and pay for it later, that is still buying it. And your "if and when it does" is actually irrelevant but I didint bother to nitpick it. You have to buy it whether or not the price falls, because you promised to deliver the shares when you sold them. If you unwind the deal because its in a loss position and settle for cash without deliver, the nature of the transaction is unchanged, you just dont go through the hassle of the physical transfers. The essence is unchanged. SELL HIGH, BUY LOW. If you ever find a way to profit from buying high and selling low as was the original claim, you'll be a very rich man....or in an asylum because you believed the impossible happened.

joether -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 3:24:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy The essence is unchanged. SELL HIGH, BUY LOW. If you ever find a way to profit from buying high and selling low as was the original claim, you'll be a very rich man....or in an asylum because you believed the impossible happened. That REALLY is 'selling short': Buy high and sell low. Person A borrows shares of stock from Person B. Person A then sells the shares at the current price. IF: a) The price for the share goes down, Person A buys the same number of shares that that price and gives it back to Person B. The different between the first and second set of purchases, is the profit. b) The price for the shares goes up; Person B decides to sell. Person A has to re-purchase the shares to give back, and take the difference as a lost. Its not insane thought, its just hard for people to wrap their heads around the concept. They've been programmed since the 1940's to believe one makes money on 'Buy Low, Sell High' mantra. Now, 'selling short' is not generally considered a good investment choice. The philosophy of investing is almost always tied to 'taking a long position'. Some people buy up investments for short or long term, but the general idea is 'buy low, sell high'. As a general rule, any CFP will advise you against setting up investments under 'selling short', unless you REALLY understand the concept.

MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 3:33:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy ROFL. Are you just being an ass for the sake of being an ass? When you borrow something and pay for it later, that is still buying it. And your "if and when it does" is actually irrelevant but I didint bother to nitpick it. You have to buy it whether or not the price falls, because you promised to deliver the shares when you sold them. If you unwind the deal because its in a loss position and settle for cash without deliver, the nature of the transaction is unchanged, you just dont go through the hassle of the physical transfers. The essence is unchanged. SELL HIGH, BUY LOW. If you ever find a way to profit from buying high and selling low as was the original claim, you'll be a very rich man....or in an asylum because you believed the impossible happened. I know now, I do not want you as my broker or investment adviser. Original claim...where ? Selling short or short selling is just an expression you know that. When I borrow stock, I am not buying it, I don't in fact want to own it. I am not investing in it. I immediately sell it. I think it is going down and it had better go down or they are into me for a 'margin' call or I maybe I break even. Don't know how you thought otherwise as I never suggested buying hi. Short selling is not buying a stock...until you pay it back at a lower value. There is a move to ban or regulate short-selling because it depresses the price if enough do and all the big boys want you buying and buying only. The majority in the market don't want you to speculate a stock down. That plays havoc with their golf...er money game. Technically I do need to buy it back but I repay the stock, so I was a very short seller and an equally shorter buyer...as it were.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 3:40:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy The essence is unchanged. SELL HIGH, BUY LOW. If you ever find a way to profit from buying high and selling low as was the original claim, you'll be a very rich man....or in an asylum because you believed the impossible happened. That REALLY is 'selling short': Buy high and sell low. Person A borrows shares of stock from Person B. Person A then sells the shares at the current price. IF: a) The price for the share goes down, Person A buys the same number of shares that that price and gives it back to Person B. The different between the first and second set of purchases, is the profit. b) The price for the shares goes up; Person B decides to sell. Person A has to re-purchase the shares to give back, and take the difference as a lost. Its not insane thought, its just hard for people to wrap their heads around the concept. They've been programmed since the 1940's to believe one makes money on 'Buy Low, Sell High' mantra. Now, 'selling short' is not generally considered a good investment choice. The philosophy of investing is almost always tied to 'taking a long position'. Some people buy up investments for short or long term, but the general idea is 'buy low, sell high'. As a general rule, any CFP will advise you against setting up investments under 'selling short', unless you REALLY understand the concept. Its hard to wrap their heads around because you are wrong, to profit its still selling for more than you buy it for.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 3:44:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy ROFL. Are you just being an ass for the sake of being an ass? When you borrow something and pay for it later, that is still buying it. And your "if and when it does" is actually irrelevant but I didint bother to nitpick it. You have to buy it whether or not the price falls, because you promised to deliver the shares when you sold them. If you unwind the deal because its in a loss position and settle for cash without deliver, the nature of the transaction is unchanged, you just dont go through the hassle of the physical transfers. The essence is unchanged. SELL HIGH, BUY LOW. If you ever find a way to profit from buying high and selling low as was the original claim, you'll be a very rich man....or in an asylum because you believed the impossible happened. I know now, I do not want you as my broker or investment adviser. When I borrow stock, I am not buying it, I don't in fact want to own it. I am not investing in it. I immediately sell it. I think it is going down and it had better go down or they are into me for a 'mergin' call. Technically I do need to buy it back but I repay the stock, so I was a very short seller and a shorter buyer...as it were. You repay by BUYING IT. So yes, you are being an ass just for the sake of being an ass. Find a way to sell a stock for less than you pay for it and still make a profit (except for ex-dividend sales, exchange rate arbitrage, or some other scheme that actually has nothing to do with the actual stock price) and I'll buy the idea from you for $10 million, cash.

MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 3:52:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy The essence is unchanged. SELL HIGH, BUY LOW. If you ever find a way to profit from buying high and selling low as was the original claim, you'll be a very rich man....or in an asylum because you believed the impossible happened. That REALLY is 'selling short': Buy high and sell low. Person A borrows shares of stock from Person B. Person A then sells the shares at the current price. IF: a) The price for the share goes down, Person A buys the same number of shares that that price and gives it back to Person B. The different between the first and second set of purchases, is the profit. b) The price for the shares goes up; Person B decides to sell. Person A has to re-purchase the shares to give back, and take the difference as a lost. Its not insane thought, its just hard for people to wrap their heads around the concept. They've been programmed since the 1940's to believe one makes money on 'Buy Low, Sell High' mantra. Now, 'selling short' is not generally considered a good investment choice. The philosophy of investing is almost always tied to 'taking a long position'. Some people buy up investments for short or long term, but the general idea is 'buy low, sell high'. As a general rule, any CFP will advise you against setting up investments under 'selling short', unless you REALLY understand the concept. Its hard to wrap their heads around because you are wrong, to profit its still selling for more than you buy it for. You say buy...then borrow. I do not buy a stock I borrow a stock as in A. I sell it immediately. I think a given stock is going down. I can go to my site, borrow...borrow that stock. That is a loan...a loan of stock. I now owe lenders stock. B cannot sell shares he has lent to me, they are gone, 'B' doesn't really exist and he cannot demand the stock back beyond the terms of the brokerage stated policy of short-selling. I've sold them. 'B' figuratively speaking can only wait and if the price goes up and my terms are about to expire, in order to pay back...the stock, described as a 'margin call' to make up the increase in price. If it goes down, at my discretion, I buy and repay. Oh and BTW, there are no people involved as identified in any transaction. I buy, it settles, I sell, it settles, I borrow, it settles. After settlement, I am on the hook for the same stock at whatever price it may be whenever I choose to repay the stock. If terms now force me to repay while the stock has gone up I am faced with what is described as a margin call..

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 5:14:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy The essence is unchanged. SELL HIGH, BUY LOW. If you ever find a way to profit from buying high and selling low as was the original claim, you'll be a very rich man....or in an asylum because you believed the impossible happened. That REALLY is 'selling short': Buy high and sell low. Person A borrows shares of stock from Person B. Person A then sells the shares at the current price. IF: a) The price for the share goes down, Person A buys the same number of shares that that price and gives it back to Person B. The different between the first and second set of purchases, is the profit. b) The price for the shares goes up; Person B decides to sell. Person A has to re-purchase the shares to give back, and take the difference as a lost. Its not insane thought, its just hard for people to wrap their heads around the concept. They've been programmed since the 1940's to believe one makes money on 'Buy Low, Sell High' mantra. Now, 'selling short' is not generally considered a good investment choice. The philosophy of investing is almost always tied to 'taking a long position'. Some people buy up investments for short or long term, but the general idea is 'buy low, sell high'. As a general rule, any CFP will advise you against setting up investments under 'selling short', unless you REALLY understand the concept. Its hard to wrap their heads around because you are wrong, to profit its still selling for more than you buy it for. You say buy...then borrow. I do not buy a stock I borrow a stock as in A. I sell it immediately. I think a given stock is going down. I can go to my site, borrow...borrow that stock. That is a loan...a loan of stock. I now owe lenders stock. B cannot sell shares he has lent to me, they are gone, 'B' doesn't really exist and he cannot demand the stock back beyond the terms of the brokerage stated policy of short-selling. I've sold them. 'B' figuratively speaking can only wait and if the price goes up and my terms are about to expire, in order to pay back...the stock, described as a 'margin call' to make up the increase in price. If it goes down, at my discretion, I buy and repay. Oh and BTW, there are no people involved as identified in any transaction. I buy, it settles, I sell, it settles, I borrow, it settles. After settlement, I am on the hook for the same stock at whatever price it may be whenever I choose to repay the stock. If terms now force me to repay while the stock has gone up I am faced with what is described as a margin call.. Until you demonstrate how to make a profit buying high and selling low (ie never) Im done responding to your semantic bullshit.

MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 5:46:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Until you demonstrate how to make a profit buying high and selling low (ie never) Im done responding to your semantic bullshit. Man, you seem to be hung up not on semantics but real meaning. What could be more clear than borrowing a stock (selling it now) then paying stock back later...cheaper ? I see no semantic problem at all, it is a very simple process. When my account settles on borrowed stock 100 shares. I now owe 100 shares of that stock. There are terms in how long I can owe this stock. Also, I must pay fees for this debt like most any debt. I immediately sell the stock at say $10/share, that I've just borrowed and receive $1,000 cash. The stock goes down to $5. I buy 100 shares for $500. I then return the stock, the 100 shares I owe or 'pay it back' as it were. I just made $500...minus my fees and interest costs. If the stock price goes up say to $11 a share, I'd be informed that I have a 'margin call' for this stock I borrowed as it is now worth more than market at my settlement and thus becomes a liability and to repay, I must meet that margin call according to the terms of my agreement or in this case $1,100 to buy the 100 shares that I owe. In this case, I lose $100. There are multi-billion funds that do nothing but short-sell just like this. There is a move in congress to regulate or prohibit [sic] short-selling, the most concern being that if millions of shares are sold short in any single stock...it forces the price down and the profit spread becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I say tough, it's free country and they aren't regulating buyers. Your check is...in the mail, right ?

DarkSteven -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 5:59:07 PM)
The stock market does two wonderful things. As mentioned above, it permits companies to get access to capital for growth. The idea of VCs supplanting it is senseless, because VCs work with the stock market to infuse cash, and hopefully hit paydirt with an IPO. It also permits people to own the means of production via shares of stock. This is HUGE for democracy. If the government owns the means of production, they can starve the people into submission whenever desired. But in this country, the people are responsible for economic activity, and are capable of driving the economy, and reaping rewards for doing so. That said, in a perfect world, the people getting equity and doing something with it would be rewarded far more handsomely than the Wall Street brokers.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 6:07:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven It also permits people to own the means of production via shares of stock. This is HUGE for democracy. Ding ding ding, give the man a cigar. quote: That said, in a perfect world, the people getting equity and doing something with it would be rewarded far more handsomely than the Wall Street brokers. And they arent now? What % of the Forbes list of billionaires made their fortunes on Wall Street? How deep into the list do you have to go before the first?

Musicmystery -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 6:39:13 PM)
quote: I know exactly what they do. They speculate on paper and further speculate with money borrowed from depositors and retirement funds. Read the above and research yourself and find out that almost all mutual funds...lose money. As you just explained yourself, you've no clue what they do.

Musicmystery -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 6:42:15 PM)
quote: If in a free-market, Thing is........these institutions did in fact originate in the free market. And for good reasons.

MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 6:46:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven The stock market does two wonderful things. As mentioned above, it permits companies to get access to capital for growth. The idea of VCs supplanting it is senseless, because VCs work with the stock market to infuse cash, and hopefully hit paydirt with an IPO. It also permits people to own the means of production via shares of stock. This is HUGE for democracy. If the government owns the means of production, they can starve the people into submission whenever desired. But in this country, the people are responsible for economic activity, and are capable of driving the economy, and reaping rewards for doing so. That said, in a perfect world, the people getting equity and doing something with it would be rewarded far more handsomely than the Wall Street brokers. If it were only true. Ford Motors for only one example, has several classes of stock paying almost nothing in dividends that has lost billions in value...all the while the Fords own a majority of the preferred stock while the common stock holders themselves, have no control over the company at all. VC's are the ones taking the early risk and most of their investments do not work out but when they do...wow. I know of investors who collectively put in $5 million into a technology firm. TWO years later during the dot.com craze when almost every damn tech stock was in the bubble...cashed out for $355 million. Oh but because of the tremendous risk [sic] they took, they only paid 15% capital gains tax. There many stories like that and where does that money come from ? Our mutual funds...that's who. Like I've said, oil workers, coal miners...all they do is risk their lives. No big deal there...you can bust your ass even get killed but make real good money so the feds get your 35%. There has been and still are shareholder rights that have for these 150 years...been denied. In others word, we have little corporate democracy at all. Shareholders do not select the board except in rare cases they have only one or two votes. They do not select management or have little or no input into pay and stock options. Often management and those with huge pay and options make million more than compared to even large stockholders. Americans own little more than paper in these stock corporations and and can only hope they are not the last buyer or the co. manages to pay some dividends, the return on which is an infinitesimally small as compared to principals.

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