RE: Why a wall street ? Why ?

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MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 8:08:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: If in a free-market, Thing is........these institutions did in fact originate in the free market. And for good reasons. Most institutions came about though govt. The balance are interest groups or non-profits. But the so-called playing field as I hear so often has been skewed by political pandering, the money interests and in the tax code. My OP was not on the validity of institutions, or their relative performance, my problem is that we do not need huge exchanges trading with 1000's of non-performing funds full of $trillions of our retirement money, playing games, coming up with 'securitized' shit-paper and all of which make huge money whether clients do or not. Goldman robbing Peter to pay Paul while both were clients who trusted them and their so-called fiduciary responsibility. [sic] They have Washington in their pocket and the NYSE, AMEX NASDAQ and the rest ultimately do not serve the economy or society and thus has no reason to exist except for the vanality and avarice we've seen in the sloth that runs it and exploits it.

Musicmystery -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 8:14:58 PM)
Have you had your rabies shot?

MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 8:18:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail but you can just option it so, theres that, and then you can etf and derivatives, and short the box and ............................speculate. It's all speculation.

MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 8:32:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "Its just the timing that is different...you sell before you buy." Sure, but the money does not go where it is supposed to. If I were to play, that's how I would play. Thing is also, too much shorting going on would mean that there is less actual investment capital. But then big money can influence the market one way or the other, it really doesn't matter. With enough money you can buy one company and short it's competitor. With enough money you can make a quite measurable effect, which is basically manipulation of the market by "artificial" forces. With trillions in the bank, I might play, but I would do so because I have the edge. Having somewhat less, I want no part of the game. T^T The billions speculating in shorting is a spit in the ocean compared to all of the capital on wall street not doing a damn thing to create demand, create jobs, and actually add real production. Far too any billions also used to acquire competition and suppliers or add-ins to tech. which further serves to narrow existing markets. Using paper and debt there is debt service and is almost always...job killing. IBM and Exxon for just two of the fortune 500, just recently spent a combined $24 billion cash NOT on expanding markets or entering new markets and creating jobs...but just to buy their own stock back. One technique you speak of was the hostile takeover...or even the credible threat. Drives up the stock, one either buys enough to get on the board, or acquire the co. or sell out at a huge profit. GM paid Ross Perot billions for EDS and $700 million for his GM stock and to go away. At 15% federal tax, sure glad I don't have to flip burgers.

EternalHoH -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 9:16:06 PM)
And you all thought Bernie Madoff ran the world's largest ponzi scheme? LOL. http://www.haasfinancial.com/?p=428 (take note of the graphics) The futures market served the country well when it was tied to actual production of goods. Once the futures market began serving the financial paper sector, where futures contracts were no longer tied to actual manufacturing and production of goods, all hell broke loose. When the housing bust nearly drove the economy into depression, we only saw 10% of the $700 trillion ponzi scheme unravel. There were about $60 trillion in housing derivatives, compared to $300 trillion in interest rate derivatives. How do we raise interest rates when needed to keep inflation in check and avoid hyperinflation without triggering the unraveling of more of the ponzi scheme containing 5 times the negative effect we felt with the housing bust?

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/11/2011 12:08:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Ford Motors for only one example, has several classes of stock paying almost nothing in dividends that has lost billions in value...all the while the Fords own a majority of the preferred stock while the common stock holders themselves, have no control over the company at all. You are talking about Class A vs Class B stock, not the preferred stock, there is a huge difference and the Ford family owns all of the Class B stock. The first sentence above isnt in English but my guess is you dont the first thing about the difference between Class A and Class B stock dividends and equity either.

Musicmystery -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/11/2011 7:27:57 AM)
quote: Most institutions came about though govt. NONE of the list in your OP originated with government. quote: stock exchanges, investment banking, hedge funds, mutual funds ... bond traders... 'futures' market NONE. These are ALL free market creations. Your silly rant ignores all of what these do, and for very good reasons. Instead, you whine about the misuses (and some of those are in your imagination only)--if anything, you present an argument for better government regulation (after you learn what these actually do, vs. your fantasies). Essentially, your argument is like claiming if government hadn't created possessions, or stores, or houses where we keep things, or even cars, then we wouldn't have theft, since that's the only reason for possessions or places to house or store or sell them. Of course, that's not correct about why we have possessions, nor about their origins--but that's exactly as goofy as your claims in the OP and this thread.

MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/11/2011 7:06:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Ford Motors for only one example, has several classes of stock paying almost nothing in dividends that has lost billions in value...all the while the Fords own a majority of the preferred stock while the common stock holders themselves, have no control over the company at all. You are talking about Class A vs Class B stock, not the preferred stock, there is a huge difference and the Ford family owns all of the Class B stock. The first sentence above isnt in English but my guess is you dont the first thing about the difference between Class A and Class B stock dividends and equity either. It's irrelevant anyway. A, B, or preferred. BTW, the burdens and benefits of which can be different for every class of every stock. (preferred or B or Z for that matter) The fact of the matter is, small stock and 'payroll' investors (a vast majority of the people of this country) enjoy essentially no corporate democracy, have a say in nothing, especially executive pay & stock compensation all of the while the poorest 50% of America own only 1% of the stock anyway, the richest 10% own 85% of the strock. Look it up. Those 10% really wield the power of stock ownership, they have the votes too.

MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/11/2011 7:12:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: Most institutions came about though govt. NONE of the list in your OP originated with government. quote: stock exchanges, investment banking, hedge funds, mutual funds ... bond traders... 'futures' market NONE. These are ALL free market creations. Your silly rant ignores all of what these do, and for very good reasons. Instead, you whine about the misuses (and some of those are in your imagination only)--if anything, you present an argument for better government regulation (after you learn what these actually do, vs. your fantasies). Essentially, your argument is like claiming if government hadn't created possessions, or stores, or houses where we keep things, or even cars, then we wouldn't have theft, since that's the only reason for possessions or places to house or store or sell them. Of course, that's not correct about why we have possessions, nor about their origins--but that's exactly as goofy as your claims in the OP and this thread. What ? What does all of that have to do with why we need wall street ? Not you or anybody has even come close to telling me and not only why, but why not if only because [it] is so fucking huge and globally entangled, these bankers and stock traders feel entitled some soft pillow socialism. In addition, I keep it technical and I haven't 'whined' about anything.

Musicmystery -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/11/2011 7:28:06 PM)
You haven't said anything that makes any sense. You've no idea what you're talking about, and once that's pointed out, you tangent off to a new rant. If you're bitching specifically about bailouts, then focus there, rather than bemoaning the existence of finance.

MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/11/2011 7:55:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery You haven't said anything that makes any sense. You've no idea what you're talking about, and once that's pointed out, you tangent off to a new rant. If you're bitching specifically about bailouts, then focus there, rather than bemoaning the existence of finance. You deal in generalities and make spurious charges. Describe for me what doesn't make sense, how I do not know what I am talking about and how I have gone off on a tangent. Every comment I have made has dealt with how unnecessary wall street is to the economy or society at large and in fact how a corrupt, culture of greed can easily form, how damaging their size and entanglements can be and their avarice precipitating what went wrong and it did...very wrong.

Musicmystery -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/11/2011 8:01:30 PM)
Nope. I specifically refuted OP claims about government and free market. Your counter-argument? "What?" Clever. At least it was brief. You're going off on ridiculous generalities, ignoring cause and effect, and ignoring function in favor of abuse. You could play this game with anything. Watch out---a piece of sky might hit you.

MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/11/2011 8:46:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Nope. I specifically refuted OP claims about government and free market. Your counter-argument? "What?" Clever. At least it was brief. You're going off on ridiculous generalities, ignoring cause and effect, and ignoring function in favor of abuse. You could play this game with anything. Watch out---a piece of sky might hit you. Ok, I said most inst, are created by govt. not all. Man, every single single agency at every level of govt....could be called an institution. You still fail to specify because you can't. The cause is greed and the effect is devastating. The function is to enrich the 'public corporation' it's management and all of the principals in its formation and selling its stock...not serve society. Everything, everything we do in this country economically now, could be done...with private money...real money and neither the economy or society needs an oligarchy of only a handful of companies dominate and manipulate paper-money markets or do we need huge invest. banks leveraging our retirement...to feed their greed. My last on the subject.

Musicmystery -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/12/2011 5:44:55 AM)
I fail to specify because you want an entire lesson on finance in a thread post. Wilbeur is right--take a class. You're being ridiculous. Why bring up government institutions if none of the things you're talking about are government institutions? Because you've no idea what you're talking about. ALL of the things mentioned in the OP serve very practical purposes, and for good reason. They all came about through free market activity, precisely because they serve good purpose. Your abuses rant ignores all of that. My analogy before is exactly what you're doing--no logical basis at all. Your mutual fund claim alone is absurd, and you appear completely ignorant about transaction costs.

DomKen -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/12/2011 6:24:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Enough, I do not believe my eyes. First my little mind probably knows as much or more how all of this works than the board here. Where do I start ? Macro ecomincs speaks to the big picture where investors are concerned with the little picture...theirs. Like my 401K, Keogh and Roth picture. First I don't give a flying fuck how the so-called 'money-market' system works while I know how money works and wall street rides it all of the way to the fuck'n bank. You can also throw out all of the business school terms you want, I am not buying them. That's all I need...business courses from economists who make their claim to fame...on wall street. So your complaint is you have money in mutual funds and they haven't performed to your liking. I recommend that in the future you do more research on what to invest in. Before I got sick I was having very good returns from a variety of no load funds and market index funds (I particularly recommend a good S&P 500 index fund).

MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/12/2011 8:17:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Enough, I do not believe my eyes. First my little mind probably knows as much or more how all of this works than the board here. Where do I start ? Macro ecomincs speaks to the big picture where investors are concerned with the little picture...theirs. Like my 401K, Keogh and Roth picture. First I don't give a flying fuck how the so-called 'money-market' system works while I know how money works and wall street rides it all of the way to the fuck'n bank. You can also throw out all of the business school terms you want, I am not buying them. That's all I need...business courses from economists who make their claim to fame...on wall street. So your complaint is you have money in mutual funds and they haven't performed to your liking. I recommend that in the future you do more research on what to invest in. Before I got sick I was having very good returns from a variety of no load funds and market index funds (I particularly recommend a good S&P 500 index fund). Here is the crux of the matter, 401K's etc., receive a tax incentive (pre-tax, payroll deduction or contributions) so every payday of members $Billions go into the mutual fund selected by the employers and limited to 10% often matched 5% by my employer or 10% of my 1099 income. For the 1099 or schedule C income, I could theoretically invest in any fund but not a CD, not a savings account and that would be IRA money which is severely limited and taxed when withdrawn. To the extent these billions are invested, more than 90% goes into a fund. Fund performance is always up and down but the key ingredinet here is that collectively these fund managers get paid whether the fund is up or down as a fee. They offer a wide array of choices their choices. As a producer going 'public' I want to sell those funds millions of pieces of paper with my picture on it. Now where traditionally investment in this paper would be on a good P/E ratio, price/earnings to compare with other investments. That means at $10/share, do I get $1 or $2 in dividends ? say a 10 or 20% return. That meant for the long term say in an S & P fund. Good luck. Not anymore, I am a principal now go public because I am awarded (by myself) say a million shares in my corp. charter as a founding principal and once my stock is picked up on the big boards (NYSE, AMEX preferrably) and the funds having no for-profit incentive, jump on and may even make a market in the same stocks (very possible conflict of interest) and collectively buy millions of shares. This pumps up the price of this IPO say from $10 to $15. I immediately sell 200,000 for $3 million. Now I am set for life and still own 800,000 more shares. There have been no dividends of course and my few shares purchased by the fund selected by my employer...are still there. The stock comes back down to $10, payroll investors (401K) have made nothing, the fund has made nothing. I still pay for his services and have a net loss. Principals could if necessary, sell the remaining 800,000 shares for another $8 million...getting out while the getting is good. Or they could file reports to the govt., lie through their teeth (cook the books) and try to keep their remaining stock worth more. My new public co. could now just as easily vanish from the marketplace. Funds lose all of the money in that stock...the principal founder walks with $11 million. What a deal. So I didn't need the stock market to create my business...I used it to go 'public' got the public (funds) to collectively buy, then I sell and made out like a bandit. Fund participants lose...or make nothing. The capitalist goes to wall street to make $11 million in a year or 2 at the longest. DomKen, you suggest I go to wall street and say in the S & P for 30-40 years to hopefully make what $100-$200,000, if I am lucky ? Wharton School of business "only from 7% to 14% of fund managers actually make any long term money and the rest truly do not know how to invest their funds looking at the long term record. Look, the OP is about how wall street serves the public from whom they receive billions on deposits through these deductions...it does not. Since 2008 it has lost an estimated $21 trillion in value. This is well after the principal founder, issuers and inside traders have walked away with millions...millions of our fund money. While *mutual fund history* should speak for itself, modern studies confirm this “terrible truth.” In the book, Stocks for the Long Run, Professor Jeremy Sigel reports that in the past 20 years, there were only three years in which the majority of funds beat the market index (as measured by the S&P 500). As an IPO or stock owning or 'optioned' principal, I am not interested in the S&P, I am interested in my stock being picked up by that and other funds because as you suggest...these funds draw billions of depository money into [it] while my stock is there. Once you and say a few thousand of your friends dutifully have your money in these funds, my stock does great.

DomKen -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/12/2011 8:57:13 AM)
Most (all?) 401's allow the owner, ie. you, to decide what to invest in. If you don't want to invest in mutual funds you can direct your money into bonds or real estate trusts or even just leave it as cash. As to managed mutual funds, yeah avoid them like the clap. That's why I recommended an index fund. If you don't know the difference you have no business discussing the subject.

MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/12/2011 10:24:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Most (all?) 401's allow the owner, ie. you, to decide what to invest in. If you don't want to invest in mutual funds you can direct your money into bonds or real estate trusts or even just leave it as cash. As to managed mutual funds, yeah avoid them like the clap. That's why I recommended an index fund. If you don't know the difference you have no business discussing the subject. Well control of any given 401K plan is the 'Plan administrator' unless otherwise specifically as assumed by the participant, in writing. That's extremely rare. Look, we are getting off track again. I can get into any type of investment, bonds, real estate (trusts are through paper anyway) without wall street. Suffice it say that a conservative estimate has $3 trillion of 401K retirement money under the complete discretion of 'Plan administrators' and that money is there to 'put lipstick on this pig' of a stock or fund by whatever name.

truckinslave -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/18/2011 8:04:40 AM)
I say you obviously don't know anything more about stock markets than futures markets... your knowledge of which you so eloquently describe as "whatever that is".

BenevolentM -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/19/2011 10:34:29 PM)
Even if he were to take such a course I doubt it would do much good since school makes heavy use of appeal to authority. Real answers take many, many years of dedicated hard work to achieve.

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