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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/20/2011 2:11:30 AM

Termyn8or

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"The billions speculating in shorting is a spit in the ocean compared to all o"

No offense intended, but you are flat out wrong about that.

T^T

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/20/2011 2:31:23 AM

Termyn8or

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People dismaze me.

You get a 401K for example. Lemme ask you something, why is the tax deferred ? What are you special or something ? If I open an account with a broker, that comes out of my (maybe) after tax income. Why do I have to pay but you don't ? What the fuck died and made you prima donna ?

It's because these things are strictly regulated and controlled, and now that this point is clear, ask who is it that controls these things. They have a shitload of money and you don't. Didn't you ever think that they got that money by taking it from others ? They all take advantage of you, every day, but the question is why, by tax law, do they purposely engage in SOCIO-ECONOMIC engineering to get people to invest in certain"approved" funds ?

How many fucking guesses do you want ?

How many prisons in your state are owned by relatives of the governor ?

T^T

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/20/2011 6:51:31 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

People dismaze me.

You get a 401K for example. Lemme ask you something, why is the tax deferred ? What are you special or something ?

Where to start with silliness like this?

It's tax deferred to encourage retirement savings. Seems legislators figured that would be a good thing. Imagine.

Special? The tax is paid eventually, and on a much higher sum, as it's withdrawn, spreading out that tax impact over retirement years. Isn't that cheaper than more SS or welfare? And doesn't that prompt the general well-being of the nation's people?

You are special too. The tax code allows for other vehicles as well. You could, for instance, open a Roth IRA--and NEVER pay taxes on its accumulated value, even when you withdraw it. You can even withdraw early what you've put in without penalty.

Or you could open a traditional IRA, and tax-defer your contributions.

What are you, special or something? Yes. You're an American citizen.

Enjoy.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 2/20/2011 6:52:34 AM >

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/21/2011 1:37:25 AM

Termyn8or

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Mm, I want to take 30% of my gross pay and invest it in something. I want the tax rakeoff. If I invest in what they approve, I get the rakeoff, if I buy cars, houses, or even a bunch of pounds of weed for example, I don't.

T^T

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/21/2011 8:51:03 AM

Musicmystery

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Not strictly true--you could invest in real estate trusts.

Unless you don't make much, no one is going to be able to shelter 30% of their income in tax-deferred retirement accounts, as you'll hit the maximum.

Of course, you can invest the regular way after maxing out--and in any legal investments you choose.

Why you would invest in a depreciating asset like cars is a mystery, but it's your call.

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/21/2011 12:05:19 PM

Termyn8or

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Cars may not be the best example for sure. You can only make money on classics etc. Real estate would be good. The weed was a joke actually.

I see a good part of the ridiculous tax structure as social engineering. Tax can be deferred if you do this with the money, but not that.

Certain people make money no matter what happens. Every trade has a fee, some are not so big, but a fee.

Then I could put a bunch of money in the banks and hope to get what 2% ? Then they can loan out money for 8%. Why don't I just loan that money to the person directly ? If it's properly securitized, the risk isn't all that bad. If I did that could I get a deferment ?

I dunno, I just think there are better investments to be made than in the stock market. Too many unpredictable influences. What is predictable pays less, of course. Riskier investments can pay better, but then it's like gambling, and I'm not so sure the cards are properly shuffled.

T^T

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/21/2011 12:16:32 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

Then I could put a bunch of money in the banks and hope to get what 2% ? Then they can loan out money for 8%. Why don't I just loan that money to the person directly ? If it's properly securitized, the risk isn't all that bad. If I did that could I get a deferment ?

You could invest in bank stock, tax deferred, or funds.

You could also loan to people directly. A few web sites are already set up to bring borrowers and lenders together.

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/21/2011 5:02:26 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Then I could put a bunch of money in the banks and hope to get what 2% ? Then they can loan out money for 8%. Why don't I just loan that money to the person directly ? If it's properly securitized, the risk isn't all that bad. If I did that could I get a deferment ?

You could invest in bank stock, tax deferred, or funds.

You could also loan to people directly. A few web sites are already set up to bring borrowers and lenders together.

Yea, and think...without wall street.

I understand you two are discussing tax distinctions but my whole point is that before the 401K laws and I won't go into their corruption but it is for a purpose. Wall street was retail banks very similar to your local banks. Some were investors in what they call equity funds sometimes called investment banking. Now once you get into equity funds or investment banking we are no longer really talking banking in the traditional sense. It does not do traditional banking services, take deposits and maintain checking accounts etc.

These equity and investment funds were in the form of partnerships so if they lost money...it was theirs. Once Glass-Stegal was 'reformed' now they had access to mutual fund money and all of the 'equities' or 'investments' they seek to buy and sell. Now these funds had a deliberately pre-tax investor I call the payroll investor who essentially blindly allows plan admin, to offer a select few funds for $billion a week into mutual funds. This gave $trillion in liquidity to what traditionally depended on predominantly large retirement funds with or without a re-tax favor.

This means now that wall street is flush not with partnership money but...our money. (estimates have it at once $6 trillion now down to 3) So the govt. managed by wall street and bankers holding govt. jobs, passes a great new tax deferral for us and presto...instant $billions...every week go to wall street. That liquidity provided by our 401K's gave some real value to all of their shit-paper, turned by our money...into real money. Now if they over-speculate, or over-leverage that to make more and they do it on paper they knew was shit paper we know now why wall street exists...to make them or early private investors...rich, that's it.

When posters here suggest to me to go get an education about this, it is an admission they themselves cannot give it to me. If there was an education for me to learn about wall street, that does not explain here in this OP...why we need a wall street, otherwise I am all eyes. We do not need wall street and would in fact be a few $trillion richer...without it. Think about as many private, local mutual or equity funds. They would be much smaller, wouldn't be selling the whole fucking world bullshit 'securites' as wall street did for 3-4 years and wouldn't come to Washington hands out threatening doom without a multi-$trillion bailout.

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/21/2011 8:44:18 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

equity funds sometimes called investment banking

You have not a clue what you're talking about. They are not at all the same thing.

And of course an investment bank isn't the same as a commercial bank.

The rest of your rant has nothing to do with the premise.

Why do we have/need a Wall St.? To lower transaction costs. Can you trade securities without it? Of course. Go ahead.

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/22/2011 12:40:32 AM

Termyn8or

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"Can you trade securities without it? Of course. Go ahead. "

I'd like to know just how that would work. Really if brokers and such can get securities, it would follow that regular folk should be able to as well. Where would one go ? To the companies directly in which they want to invest ? Stockbrokers, fund managers etc. do not work for free. Cut out the middleman ?

Actually I can see how it could work for buying, but selling ? Well the brokers have the market, and selling it on your own would be............ I mean, what would you do, put it on craigslist ? Human nature being what it is, then we would have to worry about forged stock certificates. They'll forge just about anything else.

So with a broker you can be pretty sure you're getting the real McCoy, unless it is shorted of course. But then you are in their pocket for the dividends, there is a paper trail. It's enforcable.

It would be interesting to try to invest without the market, I don't think the subject has been really explored. The answers could prove a bona fide reason for the existence of the stock market, rather than whatever other options may exist.

T^T

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/22/2011 8:27:27 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

Where would one go ?

To someone who has them and wants to sell.

After you have fun trying to run down all these people and get them to trade with you, you'll appreciate being able to go to the market. Faster, cheaper, and with more reliable pricing. That's why we do it.

Same with bartering. Run down all those people for each good--or just go to the store.

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/22/2011 5:50:29 PM

Termyn8or

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OK next question. It's like a store in a way, that is understood. But if I walked up to the door, they probably wouldn't let me in, even if they did, I wouldn't be able to trade would I ?

So I have to contact a broker or something, some type of agent. They contact those who have "seats" on the exchange.

How does one get such a seat ?

T^T

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/22/2011 6:18:52 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

equity funds sometimes called investment banking

You have not a clue what you're talking about. They are not at all the same thing.

And of course an investment bank isn't the same as a commercial bank.

The rest of your rant has nothing to do with the premise.

Why do we have/need a Wall St.? To lower transaction costs. Can you trade securities without it? Of course. Go ahead.

Investment banking is a general term and are 'banks' as I wrote, not in the traditional sense but operate by buying and lending their way into what are called 'equity positions' in stock corporations. Often these investment banks own or compete with what are formed called various 'equity funds' often named in reference to the market they pursue. These equity funds also take collectively large stock positions in large stock corporations.

Goldman-Sachs, an investment bank would lend money on terms where they become a partner (equity position) with say a KKR equity fund manager who would use stock, their stock , to buy say Dr. Pepper. And there you have it. Goldman could then sell some of the debt oin a corporate bond.

My transaction costs are not now as low as $7 a trade because of wall street particularly in view of the fact that I am in NASDAQ. Everything that wall street does, serves itself and banker/investors...the big ones. It does nothing that society can't do locally, over the net and on a much smaller, less risky level.

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/22/2011 6:28:54 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"The billions speculating in shorting is a spit in the ocean compared to all o"

No offense intended, but you are flat out wrong about that.

T^T

The numbers I think are there. Shorting is a very small minority of speculation in stocks compared to all of the buying.

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/22/2011 6:39:07 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Where would one go ?

To someone who has them and wants to sell.

After you have fun trying to run down all these people and get them to trade with you, you'll appreciate being able to go to the market. Faster, cheaper, and with more reliable pricing. That's why we do it.

Same with bartering. Run down all those people for each good--or just go to the store.

Funny how I actually have sold my stock on my own to a fellow employee. But selling 100's of thousands even millions of shares is now conducted via the net. The NYSE sees the future and is selling out to the Europeans. What does that tell you ? The rest will remain with their speed trading, now 2/3 of all trades and in 22 seconds. What does that tell you ?

Bartering is often local, spontaneous or via news or networking.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/22/2011 6:42:27 PM >

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/22/2011 6:42:57 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

How does one get such a seat ?

Why would you want one?

First, one has to become available. Then, you have to be approved by the other seat holders. And finally--you have to purchase the seat.

But why would you need it? Why not simply have your broker place the trade? It's why we have brokers.

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/22/2011 6:45:08 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

How does one get such a seat ?

Why would you want one?

First, one has to become available. Then, you have to be approved by the other seat holders. And finally--you have to purchase the seat.

But why would you need it? Why not simply have your broker place the trade? It's why we have brokers.

Same reason anyone would get into a business...to compete.

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/22/2011 6:47:09 PM

Musicmystery

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How is having a seat on the exchange going to help you compete?

You're still going to be trading at market value.

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/22/2011 7:53:58 PM

Brain

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There is an old saying you don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater and I think it applies here. Wall Street needs to be regulated appropriately by bringing back the Glass-Steagall Act and the Volcker rule. I think if those two things are done along with regulations on derivatives and other banking laws similar to Canada the excesses of Wall Street in the past will be severely diminished. Canada requires banks to maintain appropriate reserves not lending too much money.

I don’t think it’s possible to replace Wall Street for political reasons. And you’d have to replace it with something people can understand and virtually everyone would have to agree to it and I just don’t think that’s possible. You also have to keep in mind Wall Street works for some people like Warren Buffett and the obvious question is if he can do so well why can't others.

They should put Warren Buffett in charge of all the pension funds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Do we need wall street ? If so...why ?

We do not need wall street at all and that means stock exchanges, investment banking, hedge funds, mutual funds (only existing to lose your 401K, Keough and Roth money) or bond traders.

For that matter we surely do not need a 'futures' market, whatever that is.

It has been estimated that out of anywhere (according to which estimation we refer) from $3 trillion to $6 trillion of OUR retirement money is our 'play' money chasing 'their' 'play' paper.

We do not need any paper trading. This does not mean I cannot buy or sell debt. That can be done on an individual basis without a trading exchange or anything like it or using debt to 'securitize' trading on another piece of paper.

What say you ? Now you will also have to say why we do if you think we need all of this and how it serves the economy and ultimately serves society.

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RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? - 2/23/2011 4:39:01 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
There is an old saying you don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater and I think it applies here. Wall Street needs to be regulated appropriately by bringing back the Glass-Steagall Act and the Volcker rule. I think if those two things are done along with regulations on derivatives and other banking laws similar to Canada the excesses of Wall Street in the past will be severely diminished. Canada requires banks to maintain appropriate reserves not lending too much money.

I don’t think it’s possible to replace Wall Street for political reasons. And you’d have to replace it with something people can understand and virtually everyone would have to agree to it and I just don’t think that’s possible. You also have to keep in mind Wall Street works for some people like Warren Buffett and the obvious question is if he can do so well why can't others.

They should put Warren Buffett in charge of all the pension funds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Do we need wall street ? If so...why ?

We do not need wall street at all and that means stock exchanges, investment banking, hedge funds, mutual funds (only existing to lose your 401K, Keough and Roth money) or bond traders.

For that matter we surely do not need a 'futures' market, whatever that is.

It has been estimated that out of anywhere (according to which estimation we refer) from $3 trillion to $6 trillion of OUR retirement money is our 'play' money chasing 'their' 'play' paper.

We do not need any paper trading. This does not mean I cannot buy or sell debt. That can be done on an individual basis without a trading exchange or anything like it or using debt to 'securitize' trading on another piece of paper.

What say you ? Now you will also have to say why we do if you think we need all of this and how it serves the economy and ultimately serves society.

First of all Warren Buffet wouldn't be that rich at all if it wasn't for wall street and that's an essential part of my point. Almost all of Buffet's 'wealth' is on paper, not cash. If it wasn't for the 11,000 mutual funds with $3 trillion of our money, his stock and he would very likely be worth a small fraction of what he is now.

Yes, regulation is important and we have them so when the regulators themselves allow say a AAA rating on shit-paper and direct conflicts of interest allowing in effect Goldman for example to rob Peter to pay Paul knowing full well that one customer that trusted them was going to lose to another customer, then we are talking serious fraud and the kind that govt. and wall street...will not address.

Real conservatives...REAL conservatives in this country would devolve banking and investing to the state level and wouldn't allow three major exchanges to dominate transaction and brokerage. Oh and any retirement fund that Buffet managed would have taken a real serious hit in the last couple of years just like all others.

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