Why a wall street ? Why ? (Full Version)

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MrRodgers -> Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 8:38:02 AM)

Do we need wall street ? If so...why ?

We do not need wall street at all and that means stock exchanges, investment banking, hedge funds, mutual funds (only existing to lose your 401K, Keough and Roth money) or bond traders.

For that matter we surely do not need a 'futures' market, whatever that is.

It has been estimated that out of anywhere (according to which estimation we refer) from $3 trillion to $6 trillion of OUR retirement money is our 'play' money chasing 'their' 'play' paper.

We do not need any paper trading. This does not mean I cannot buy or sell debt. That can be done on an individual basis without a trading exchange or anything like it or using debt to 'securitize' trading on another piece of paper.

What say you ? Now you will also have to say why we do if you think we need all of this and how it serves the economy and ultimately serves society.




DomKen -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 8:46:42 AM)

You're simply wrong.

While the excesses of the modern stock market and commodity exchange are obscuring their underlying utility that utility does remain.

The stock market serves as a mechanism for acquiring capital without directly borrowing the money. This is vital to the growth of business.

Commodity exchanges serve to give those who consume certain commodities a steady supply of such materials without having to directly negotiate with each supplier and further allows the producers and consumers to manage how much the commodity costs. Without commodity exchanges the US food distribution system would be impossible.




pahunkboy -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 8:58:50 AM)

We can bitch and moan about this.

Better yet- stack physical precious metals.    Starve the beast.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 9:05:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Do we need wall street ? If so...why ?

We do not need wall street at all and that means stock exchanges, investment banking, hedge funds, mutual funds (only existing to lose your 401K, Keough and Roth money) or bond traders.

For that matter we surely do not need a 'futures' market, whatever that is.

It has been estimated that out of anywhere (according to which estimation we refer) from $3 trillion to $6 trillion of OUR retirement money is our 'play' money chasing 'their' 'play' paper.

We do not need any paper trading. This does not mean I cannot buy or sell debt. That can be done on an individual basis without a trading exchange or anything like it or using debt to 'securitize' trading on another piece of paper.

What say you ? Now you will also have to say why we do if you think we need all of this and how it serves the economy and ultimately serves society.



I say take Finance of Business 101 and come back when you have a question that actually means something.




Musicmystery -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 9:31:21 AM)

quote:

We do not need wall street at all and that means stock exchanges, investment banking, hedge funds, mutual funds (only existing to lose your 401K, Keough and Roth money) or bond traders.


I couldn't disagree more.

You clearly have no idea what these actually do. And your claim about mutual funds is ridiculous (and presented without supporting argument).




Termyn8or -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 9:54:21 AM)

I'm all for getting rid of it, but we can't. And though I think in the long run we would've been better off if had never started, things would be different. Other methods of financing business would have been found.

All the big companies would not be so big, and while that sounds attractive, things like telephone service would've taken alot longer to become useful. On the other hand, there would be alot fewer businesses that are "too big to fail".

They should've let them fail. "Some people" will call me crazy, because they morbidly fear the consequences. Ways would've been found to conduct business. Perhaps GM would have went under, but how many cried when Tucker and Cord failed ? And it seems ironic, banks have gone out of business before, but now these bigger banks cannot fail, why ? Because they have MORE money ? Doesn't sound quite logical does it ?

When I saw advertisments for $150,000 mortgages for $600 per month I knew it was not right. I knew people would get screwed when time came to actually pay down some principal. But I never thought it would come to this, that it was so widespread as to actually threaten the economy the way it did. If the smaller banks had to loan out their own money they would've been more careful, but "free" money fueled the bubble which was a larger part of the problem than anyone thought. Think if the money isn't flowing like a river, home sales slump, this drives prices down. Their antics had the opposite effect. They thought it could go on forever.

It could go on forever, if real wages increased, but they didn't, at least for the fleeced. The whole scam,,, err scheme runs on growth, real growth of the economy. When they started fudging the numbers, that fueled the "cycle" which should have experienced some measure of attrition. The market would've corrected itself.

Commodity trading is similar. First of all it can be viewed as dirty rotten bastards buying up our necessities to sell later when the need is greater. Ostensibly to smooth out the inherent variations in prices, that system was ripe for abuse. It went from something akin to buying heating oil in the summer because it's a smart thing to do, to putting the grain in silos until people get hungry. And some people are so philanthropic that they will let the grain rot unless the price goes high enough.

A growing economy can withstand the abuses, and indeed it did for quite some time. But two things happened, the REAL economy didn't grow, at least our's, and the abuses became too much to bear anyway, as those who never worked a day in their lives bought the influence to make more money without working a day in their lives.

Economic stratification was bound to happen, as the investing class taxes the working class. Don't think it's not a tax just because the government didn't impose it. The definition of the word "tax" is not specific in that regard.

For better or worse we are stuck with it. Along with the bad, there are many things that never would have happened, advances in technology for example. Without "free" trade, which is actually unfair trade, you wouldn't be able to buy a cellphone for $25. You would be reading the screen of perhaps a 386 right now and GPS wouldn't exist.

Give a person wings with which to fly for half his life, and then take them away. That's about what it would be like to abolish this system. Without it ever coming into existence, he never had wings. The problem is now, he can no longer walk.

T^T




Musicmystery -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 10:06:11 AM)

Geez.

Transaction costs are not negative. Those "other methods" would be more costly--it's why we instituted these.

And I'm sure farmers are happy speculators are willing to take on the risk associated with growing crops. It keeps their livelihood from being a crap shoot.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 11:04:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're simply wrong.

While the excesses of the modern stock market and commodity exchange are obscuring their underlying utility that utility does remain.

The stock market serves as a mechanism for acquiring capital without directly borrowing the money. This is vital to the growth of business.

Commodity exchanges serve to give those who consume certain commodities a steady supply of such materials without having to directly negotiate with each supplier and further allows the producers and consumers to manage how much the commodity costs. Without commodity exchanges the US food distribution system would be impossible.

The stock exchanges are not used for start-ups. Google, Yahoo. Intel, Microsoft, name them...did NOT go to wall street for start-up capital. They go there after they made a profit...simply to use our money to get rich. Yes, stocks are debt free capital for which the big invest. banks and market speculators use our mutual funds and represents the only real money debt free...available for business finance. If investors/speculators want to risk their money fine...but not ours.

Out of 11,000 mutual funds in 2010...SEVEN made money. They exist on our tax advantaged 401K's and the like specifically for that purpose. You look it up.

The economy and society do not need a paper speculation regimes either in companies or commodities to conduct trading in those businesses to take place. They simply serve as a vehicle upon which to speculate even further on price. Exxon negotiates a price for oil starting...starting with the paper price and going from there and has no real relationship to supply or demand...pure speculation.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 11:06:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

We do not need wall street at all and that means stock exchanges, investment banking, hedge funds, mutual funds (only existing to lose your 401K, Keough and Roth money) or bond traders.


I couldn't disagree more.

You clearly have no idea what these actually do. And your claim about mutual funds is ridiculous (and presented without supporting argument).

I know exactly what they do. They speculate on paper and further speculate with money borrowed from depositors and retirement funds. Read the above and research yourself and find out that almost all mutual funds...lose money.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 11:13:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Geez.

Transaction costs are not negative. Those "other methods" would be more costly--it's why we instituted these.

And I'm sure farmers are happy speculators are willing to take on the risk associated with growing crops. It keeps their livelihood from being a crap shoot.

Fine but once we placed a tax incentive on 401K's etc. they are now using our money and when their speculation, leveraging doesn't work, funds flush with our money...get fucked. In fact some have estimated that society lost 3 of those $6 trillion of our retirement money thanx to the last heist.

Farmers and the like were taking on all of those risks long before there was a CFTC and 100's of billions are leveraged to merely speculate. If in a free-market, they can't take the risk...get out of the business. They should never be allowed to leverage OP money merely to speculate further...in an attempt to profit further.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 11:30:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The stock exchanges are not used for start-ups. Google, Yahoo. Intel, Microsoft, name them...did NOT go to wall street for start-up capital.


Where did they go for their startup capital? What was the incentive for their investors?




mnottertail -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 11:33:58 AM)

Well, one place start-ups go is to venture capitalists, who look to send them public and really get a pay off.




joether -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 11:46:18 AM)

Judging by what the OP has posted (and since reposted), would lead me to reason, he/she doesn't have the slightest clue what the financial markets are for. Or how exactly they operate. I'm sure his/her little mind would simply implode having to learn what exactly is defined as 'a money market system'. Amazingly enough, I agree with willbeurdaddy, and the OP should go get a few college level courses in business & economics (particularly macro-economics).

Every company that is 'big' now was once 'small' at some point. Even Wal-Mart was considered a small business under the Small Business Association at one point in the company's history. Facebook, which now worth quite a huge sum of money, was worth absolutely nothing just six years ago. Businesses not only trade on nationally reconized exchanges, but also regional exchanges (like Chicago). Local businesses aquire capital in a number of ways. Sometimes, they produce an innovating technology or process that people crave. Apple got its start in this manner, so did Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream.

I can always tell the one's that bitch the most about how business is done in this country, have the least understanding of it: I just ask them to explain the correct defination of 'Selling Short'. You know, the process where you buy high, sell low, and make a profit?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 12:03:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether


I just ask them to explain the correct defination of 'Selling Short'. You know, the process where you buy high, sell low, and make a profit?



Well, we did actually agree for once.... up to here, unless you are being sarcastic. Profiting at Short selling is no different than profiting at any other investing, buy low, sell high.

Its just the timing that is different...you sell before you buy.




Moonhead -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 12:31:00 PM)

If you want to have a stock exchange, housing it somewhere is generally a good idea.




pahunkboy -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 1:12:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

We do not need wall street at all and that means stock exchanges, investment banking, hedge funds, mutual funds (only existing to lose your 401K, Keough and Roth money) or bond traders.


I couldn't disagree more.

You clearly have no idea what these actually do. And your claim about mutual funds is ridiculous (and presented without supporting argument).

I know exactly what they do. They speculate on paper and further speculate with money borrowed from depositors and retirement funds. Read the above and research yourself and find out that almost all mutual funds...lose money.



You are not smarter then an algorithm!




pahunkboy -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 1:15:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Judging by what the OP has posted (and since reposted), would lead me to reason, he/she doesn't have the slightest clue what the financial markets are for. Or how exactly they operate. I'm sure his/her little mind would simply implode having to learn what exactly is defined as 'a money market system'.


AHAHAHA!    You fat finger crash enthusiast!      Check out the presidents working group on financial markets!    The OP knows more then most on this thread.

Free  market my ass. It is all rigged!




MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 2:14:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Judging by what the OP has posted (and since reposted), would lead me to reason, he/she doesn't have the slightest clue what the financial markets are for. Or how exactly they operate. I'm sure his/her little mind would simply implode having to learn what exactly is defined as 'a money market system'. Amazingly enough, I agree with willbeurdaddy, and the OP should go get a few college level courses in business & economics (particularly macro-economics).

Every company that is 'big' now was once 'small' at some point. Even Wal-Mart was considered a small business under the Small Business Association at one point in the company's history. Facebook, which now worth quite a huge sum of money, was worth absolutely nothing just six years ago. Businesses not only trade on nationally reconized exchanges, but also regional exchanges (like Chicago). Local businesses aquire capital in a number of ways. Sometimes, they produce an innovating technology or process that people crave. Apple got its start in this manner, so did Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream.

I can always tell the one's that bitch the most about how business is done in this country, have the least understanding of it: I just ask them to explain the correct defination of 'Selling Short'. You know, the process where you buy high, sell low, and make a profit?


Enough, I do not believe my eyes. First my little mind probably knows as much or more how all of this works than the board here. Where do I start ? Macro ecomincs speaks to the big picture where investors are concerned with the little picture...theirs. Like my 401K, Keogh and Roth picture.

First I don't give a flying fuck how the so-called 'money-market' system works while I know how money works and wall street rides it all of the way to the fuck'n bank. You can also throw out all of the business school terms you want, I am not buying them. That's all I need...business courses from economists who make their claim to fame...on wall street.

Facebook was a start up 6 years ago, with PRIVATE capital...not wall street money. Wal-mart, Google, Yahoo, Intel and yes, Apple, Ben & Jerry's ALL name them...ALL started, I repeat...started with PRIVATE capital. Markets did fine for 150 years with private capital.

These companies come to wall street to cash in on the PUBLIC being sold piece of paper with their picture on it...nothing more. You go to wall street...to get rich. Facebook is appraised by your paper markets at $50 billion, which is an absolute joke. 2010 Earnings are not even 2 % of that. Wow what a deal. Until they pay dividends which they may not and any higher than that, I'll go with a nice local CD.

Almost all so-called innovative technologies started with PRIVATE capital or from govt. i.e., Darpa, NASA for example. Wall street and futures markets do not innovate in anyway except to come up with yet another piece of shit paper for our mutual funds to buy and lose if they are not careful which they aren't. Fund managers make money even if you lose money.

I have among the greatest understanding of wall street and paper markets. The macroeconomics of that is getting as many trillions in mutual fund and retirement capital chasing those stocks making principals rich...little or nothing more for the economy or society.

Selling short is just another paper-trading technique and is essentially irrelevant to the extent that money markets are supposed to bring all of this wealth [sic] to the masses.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 2:17:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

We do not need wall street at all and that means stock exchanges, investment banking, hedge funds, mutual funds (only existing to lose your 401K, Keough and Roth money) or bond traders.


I couldn't disagree more.

You clearly have no idea what these actually do. And your claim about mutual funds is ridiculous (and presented without supporting argument).

I know exactly what they do. They speculate on paper and further speculate with money borrowed from depositors and retirement funds. Read the above and research yourself and find out that almost all mutual funds...lose money.



You are not smarter then an algorithm!

2/3 of trading in stocks on wall street...takes an average for each trade of some 22 seconds. That serves investors with fancy software...not the mutual funds, the economy or society at large.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why a wall street ? Why ? (2/10/2011 2:20:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether


I just ask them to explain the correct defination of 'Selling Short'. You know, the process where you buy high, sell low, and make a profit?


Well, we did actually agree for once.... up to here, unless you are being sarcastic. Profiting at Short selling is no different than profiting at any other investing, buy low, sell high.

Its just the timing that is different...you sell before you buy.

Come on, you know more than you articulate here. Short selling doesn't begin with buying or selling, it starts with borrowing stock. Then you sell it immediately based on your speculation that the price will fall. If and when it does, you buy it back and pay it back, you keep the difference.




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