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ORIGINAL: lally2

but it seems to me that a sub is either seen as someone strong and therefore resiliant or someone weak and leadable.

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ive just realised ive been in a situation ive had to suck in for nearly twenty years.  submitting to a situation that wont go away until my son is grown.  i cant release myself until then.

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and each one went tits up because my submission to them resulted in them thinking it was ok to take that submision as unremitting consent.  almost as if i dont have a heart all i have is submission.

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at what point have any of you reached where you have realised that to expect that extra expectation will push youre submissives heart to breaking point and yet theyre submission reaches beyond that breaking point and survives.

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ive just realised ive been in a situation ive had to suck in for nearly twenty years.  submitting to a situation that wont go away until my son is grown.  i cant release myself until then.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

how much of what dominance is has to do with the submission they want and expect and how much of that factors in the submissives heart.

In Osf's recent thread about what a slave is, the suggestion was made that both submissive and dominant 'need' the orientation of the other in order to satisfy their own need.
To me, this would resemble two loops which are only connected at one point of exchange.

What, to me, seems a better interaction is when two people build a relationship with mutual trust and respect first, and where the dominance of the one and the submission of the other becomes a 'natural' interaction. This, to me, is more like two loops that go parallel and become intertwined. To me, that can't but go through both hearts. It wouldn't be ok for me to allow my heart to get involved one sided.

which is quite a heavy question i know and sorry about that but it seems to me that a sub is either seen as someone strong and therefore resiliant or someone weak and leadable.

im a mix of both.

I am so 'leadable' that I had to become strong in order to prevent being led down the wrong path.
I was 'trained' to be that 'leadable' (I think that having a submissive inclination is/was at the bottom of this) by my parents and their religion. It didn't bring happiness, only internal turmoil. When, after 15 years of stress and escalating control/violence in a marriage I had to leave, because I had reached that breaking point, where I had been strong and had fought for making it work, I was told I was too selfish. I am both strong and weak.

the codicil is that we submit to whatever our Masters or Dominants want and if we dont like it we suck it up or we leave.  such an easy thing to say.

This is why, to me, only a relationship where both hearts are involved, where both are committed, will stand the test of time.
It seems that many are seeking to have their kink satisfied, yet are not able/willing to invest in durable relationships. Recipe for disaster.

ive just realised ive been in a situation ive had to suck in for nearly twenty years.  submitting to a situation that wont go away until my son is grown.  i cant release myself until then.

I see that as a commitment I have made, that started when I had kids. Because I am able to be there for them, I will be there for them. To me, that is what my children deserve, especially after all the 'bad' years. I do that with joy, and at the moment I see my commitment to them start to bear fruit in them. My own plans have been on a back burner, although I have been able to do what I wanted most: finish a degree. But that was very do-able besides raising kids. And thus, as they become more independent, my 'door' opens more and more.

One of the 'best' things that my kids and I have learned over the last 5 years is to express personal limits/boundaries and to accept these from each other. That also means that they accept that mom has a life of her own, just like they have it and want it. ***

all of my relationships have been Ms or Ds even when i was vanilla.  and each one went tits up because my submission to them resulted in them thinking it was ok to take that submision as unremitting consent.  almost as if i dont have a heart all i have is submission.

For me, this had two sides: one is that the 'other' was/became severely mentally ill, and the other is that I took what he did without standing up for myself.

do you see submissives as being strong or weak people that submission is all they have and all they give.

No. I am a woman first, an individual with brains, incessant desire for knowledge, with a deep interest in people, their motivations, and so on. I want to be seen for who I am, not for what I can give. Yes, I am extremely submissive, but I have seen where that can lead with someone who didn't respect me yet who told me I couldn't walk away because I had made a vow.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

the man has power over me through my son - if tom was grown and gone id slam the door in his face and id never open it again.  i cant say that to him because it would alter the power dynamic as he sees it, the power he has over me and that would affect my son and my son is more important to me than some jumped up notion his father has with regard to me. so i submit myself to this, its the only way that i can handle it.  i shut off my emotions as best i can and i just submit to whatever comes.  there is light at the end of the tunnel, but its a way off yet and its taxing the submission im holding in place in order to keep from breaking down the walls and tearing my sons life to bits. it is submission but very negative and choiceless - if i didnt it would be world war three with my son in the middle.  im not prepared to do that.  so i submit to his father on all matters with regard to his life and how it affects mine and toms.

It's a very tough spot Lally, I wish you strength to find your way through it.

It used to be like this for me as well. What held me back from making the changes/expressing how I wanted the interaction with my kid's dad to be was fear. In order to deal with that fear, I had to face the consequences of expressing what my limits were with regard to my interaction with their dad. Bottom line is: what do I have to loose? Financial security? I adjusted my ideas of how much I thought I needed. It took the power away from his attempts to manipulate.

In the end it didn't matter to me how he experienced that change, what mattered to me was that I got the room/peace/limit I wanted. I had catered enough to his whims. He didn't take my needs/wishes into account. The only one who could stand up for those is/was me. So I limited his power, and he took it, and I got what I wanted. He only had as much power as he did, because I gave it to him, thinking he was trustworthy and had my best interest in mind. Only after his distorted thinking became visible did I see that the trust and power I had given to him was absolutely misplaced.

He tried to get to me through the kids, which led to the kids and I cutting off contact with him for over a year. This empowered the kids (and I).

It was very important for my kids to see how I learned to deal with their dad  and how to set my own boundaries. They are proud of me for being where we/I am now.

Learning to listen to my emotions has been of vital importance to me. Both to find out what I really wanted and what I absolutely didn't want in my life.
Over the years I had become and wanted to be numb to my emotions, because accepting them meant that I wouldn't be able to stay strong. With hind sight, that has been the worst decision I ever made: being too strong. And, oh paradox, I had to become very strong again, in order to stop the cycle I was in. But this time I was strong in harmony with my feelings.

It was not me who tore the lives of my kids apart. It was their dad and I who built something that was very unhealthy, and that needed to be torn down for everyone's sake, especially for the kids. Only after it was torn down we could start with recovering and restore. Postponing tearing it down leads to more damage being done, and a longer recovery time.

For years I submitted to the lie that I had no choice. It wasn't worth it.

Its far more complicated than the normal separated family.  for my son i have kept the door open, his father has a key, he comes and goes.  it was something i wanted to do at the begining for tom and it has gone on since.  as such his father has full access to my life in a way that isnt normal in a broken family situation.  ive tried to have it that tom has his dad here in his home, his dad stays over and has more control and knowledge of how things are than he might otherwise.  the control he had over me when we were together isnt so encompassing but the Ds side of it still goes on in order to keep the man from turning into a full on bastard instead of just an occasional bastard. 

Yes it was more complicated for me too, but I corrected it, and made it simple.

I only felt safe when he couldn't get in anymore. He did anything to not loose that access, and for a while I believed him, because he was so convincing. But it wasn't what I wanted. Thus, it had to stop. The result is that my son visits his father in his father's house, and it took a while for my son to accept that. He had to learn that what he wanted wasn't good for his sister and I (and him in the long run).

And yes, I had to 'silence' my submissive side in order to accomplish what I did. I think that this is a weak spot for submissives, where they are easiest to be manipulated. It is the responsibility of the submissive to recognize this and 'armor' themselves against.

If you need to prevent the man from turning into a full on bastard, I have been there, it's like walking on egg shells. And that is a red flag!!!
He has to take responsibility for his behavior. If he doesn't do that, and I cater to him, I am enabling him. It's tough to stop doing it, and can be dangerous.

Therefore, again, I wish you lots and lots of courage and strength.

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ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

i can't say i've been in a long-term situation where i was moving past the breaking point just because i was a sub. I think that is a good thing.
but it might be similar to the way many submissives have problems saying "no" even in vanilla situations.  sometimes the submission aspect is a huge factor even when they aren't totally aware of it, and you end up being taken advantage of because of this.
so in a vanilla relationship where there's no expressed power dynamic, it might be easy for someone to see you as weak because you always go along with what they want, and from there, that person can grow to disrespect you.
it's sad when you feel that you're being taken for granted, or you aren't being respected.
This is, I think, often the case when a vanilla wife is the home maker without an income of her own. First I had to start to respect what I was doing at home, then I had to ask for respect of those who I was living with, and then I had to start delegating tasks so that I had time for something I needed to do (education) and they learned that they can't depend on someone else to take all the household chores out of their hands. The others might resist/resent this change and it's tough to stick with it, until they accept it.

an example might be when you're a service oriented person, particularly domestically, and the person you're serving feels they don't have to be appreciative of you because "you're a sub and 'service is its own reward' right?" it can be, but when you're constantly giving, with nothing cycling back to you, you run out of steam pretty fast. there does sometimes feel like there's a huge emphasis on this idea of "you just take it because you're a sub," and sometimes that can be enough to help you over a hurdle, but other times, it can help you right down into a hole of disrespect.
There are many women who believe those sentences, based on what they hear in churches: you are a woman, and of lesser value, therefore you have to submit, and be content with it, even if it goes against your feelings, better judgment, or .... the one who can send you to hell for not submitting.

Thus, embracing the submissive becomes very difficult, as it has a negative tone, and is forced on them from the outside, and they feel they have no choice.

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back to the op if anyone has anything to say on that topic ill be glad to respond.

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its far more complicated than the normal separated family. for my son i have kept the door open, his father has a key, he comes and goes. it was something i wanted to do at the begining for tom and it has gone on since. as such his father has full access to my life in a way that isnt normal in a broken family situation. ive tried to have it that tom has his dad here in his home, his dad stays over and has more control and knowledge of how things are than he might otherwise. the control he had over me when we were together isnt so encompassing but the Ds side of it still goes on in order to keep the man from turning into a full on bastard instead of just an occasional bastard.