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RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/12/2011 6:03:47 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: happylittlepet

1. When is it acceptable to interfere?


When you're ready to live with the consequences of taking action...good or bad.

quote:

6. Is it possible that cultural/societal attitudes towards individualism (e.g. everyone for him/herself) and towards more collective ways of thinking will influence one's responses to the above questions?


Yes.

The rest of the questions I can't answer, because my answers would change depending on the situation.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/12/2011 6:55:09 PM   
avena


Posts: 80
Joined: 12/4/2010
Status: offline 		I'm not going to answer the OP's individual questions, because the only one that's really important, IMO, is the first one...

quote:

1. When is it acceptable to interfere?


My answer is a very unsatisfying 'It depends'.

As someone mentioned, observing a scene where a safeword is being blatantly ignored, would be more than enough justification for someone to step up and intervene. In fact, I'd expect anyone, submissive or dominant, to say something in that case. Is the ignored safeword abuse, though? Depends on the relationship.

Intefering in a scene is not the same thing as interfering in a relationship though. A scene could occur between two people who don't really know each other all that well. And it would probably be unlikely that they'd play together again, after a safeword was ignored. A scene between a sub/Dom pair who have a long, committed relationship, where a safeword is ignored, may be a sign that the relationship is on the rocks. But that still doesn't make it abuse.

Abuse is one of the most difficult things to spot from the outside, and from the inside, of a relationship. Despite what someone else said, it is NOT obvious if someone is being abused. Broken bones are only the most visible sign of physical abuse. There are many kinds of abuse, and of all of them, broken bones are the easiest to heal. It is the mental aspects of abuse that make it so difficult to spot, and to walk away from.

"Abuse occurs when people mistreat or misuse other people, showing no concern for their integrity or innate worth as individuals, and in a manner that degrades their well being. Abusers frequently are interested in controlling their victims. They use abusive behaviors to manipulate their victims into submission or compliance with their will."

Sounds an awful lot like BDSM in general...from an outside perspective. The key phrase, in that statement, for me is "showing no concern for their integrity or innate worth as individuals". A 'dominant' who shows no concern for their partner, isn't really a dominant at all, IMO. But again, how does someone from the outside looking in, know and understand the thought process going on, for both parties involved in a particular relationship and/or scene?

As AquaticSub and others have said, the only thing anyone can really do is talk to the person they think may be being abused. Offer open ended help, if they ever need it. And be prepared to answer that 2 am phonecall, go out in the cold, and go and pick them up. Because even if someone IS being abused, and it's not just the outsider jumping to conclusions, the only way that person is going to walk away from that relationship, and stay away, is when they finally realize that they do really deserve better. It doesn't matter if they know they're being abused, if they think they deserve the abuse. Until they ask for the help, taking them away from the situation usually just results in them going back.

Talk to them, offer your help, and don't make accusations. The hardest part is sitting there, watching someone you really do know is being abused, and being unable to help them. I know, from both sides of that coin. It took me 9 years to finally believe that I deserved better. My friends and family actually cheered when I finally called and asked for that help. They had all offered that help so many times, and had to sit, frustrated, when I just couldn't accept it. And from the other side of the coin, I had to sit and watch for three years as my best friend went through that hell, until she finally called, asking for help. All my friends now know that my house is a safe house. Anyone who needs help can call, and I'll come and get them.

So do you interfer? In a truly abusive relationship, you can't really. All you can really do is offer help and support, and then hope that they accept it. That's not interference. That's being a good friend.



On a side note, for the broken bones and other visible signs of abuse...hospital staff are required to report suspected abuse to the authorities, whenever someone comes in with injuries typical of abuse. At least, they did in my friend's case. Serious injuries that are not being treated SHOULD be reported to authorities.


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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/12/2011 8:01:05 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		It also depends what you mean by interfere. If I was worried about a friend and asked if she was okay, if she needed any help, does that count as interference? Because I believe that it is always acceptable to tell a friend you are worried about them and to offer help if they choose to take it.

However if while at the grocery store I saw some guy slapping his partner, and degrading her, I would feel fine calling the police. I wouldn't interfere with a violent male in a place where humiliation scenes should not take place, for fear of his violence being directed to me, but I have no problem asking the authorities to judge the situation and intervene if in their professional opinion that is warranted. That's what they're there for.Obviously if that same thing happened in a play party, no one would bat an eye.


< Message edited by DesFIP -- 2/12/2011 8:02:38 PM >

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RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 8:42:13 AM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: happylittlepet
For me, there is a disconnect between the responses in these two threads:

BDSM, abuse, and spin  - http://www.collarchat.com/m_3561020/tm.htm
and
Having your limits broken - http://www.collarchat.com/m_3564952/tm.htm

Sorry, but i don't see the disconnect. The second thread is the story of someone whose hard limits were broken. The first thread is the story of someone who has no limits.

My questions are:

1. When is it acceptable to interfere?

i don't have a hard rule for interfering in other peoples' lives. i'd say it's a judgement call, but in general: when i feel strongly enough about it, when i feel that what they're doing is immoral or likely to seriously harm themselves or others. By "interfere" i mean stating my opinion about it. That answer doesn't depend on whether it's a relationship or a scene. It also doesn't depend on whether it's BDSM or anything else.

2. Whose observation that an interaction between partners/accomplices is not acceptable (i.e. abusive) carries more weight? The observation of a Master/Dom or the observation of a submissive/slave?

i guess i don't understand the question. I would be just as concerned if either party said it, or if neither of them did and i just suspected it.

3. What carries more weight: the perception that standards like SSC are broken, your personal standards, or the private agreement between the parties involved?

My personal standards, which contain some overlap with the other two. For example: i believe that hard limits should not be broken on purpose. i believe that, regardless of the dynamic or degree of power exchange, that it's the sub's responsibility to behave with common sense, and i believe in allowing mentally fit adults to consent to edge play.

4. Here, Ontario, Canada, the law states that anyone who suspects that there is abuse going on has to notify the authorities. Not going to the authorities makes one guilty of omitting to report the suspicion. Because of the repercussions and because they might be wrong, many people hesitate to make a report.

Then the law is vague. At what point does "wondering" whether there is abuse cross the line into "suspecting" that there is abuse? And what is "abuse"?

Where do you draw the line between sane extreme BDSM and extreme BDSM gone wrong and what would make you go to the authorities?

i'm not sure i would draw a line between those two. i think it's entirely possible for sane extreme BDSM to go wrong (i.e. an accident). If i had a strong opinion about it, i would probably tell the people involved, not the authorities. That's what i consider "getting involved". i would only tell the authorities if there was a minor involved, if a third party was being harmed or endangered against their will, or if i thought one of the parties wasn't fit to give consent. That wouldn't prevent me from expressing an opinion about someone's behavior if i felt strongly enough about it. Then again, it's unlikely that i would feel strongly enough about it. In my whole life there's only a handful of times when i've done such a thing (and none of them involved BDSM).

Or are the authorities perceived as 'the ones who wouldn't understand'.

In this case i am defining "the authorities" as the police.

Should they understand?

i guess i don't understand the question. It's not the job of the police to "understand". It's their job to enforce the law. That's what i would expect them to do.

Would you rather err on the side of caution, or, on the side that you might say later 'I should have'.

Somewhere in the middle, i think.

5. Based on 4. I have the impression that the authorities want people to report their suspicions because the authorities understand that a victim might not be able to leave/see what is going on. Also, the victim is not held responsible for the abuse occurring. It is the abuser who needs to be stopped. Intervention or at least investigation is therefore necessary. As the victim might not see what is going on, is her/his choice to remain in the situation for you an indication that everything is ok?

i don't speculate about what the police *want*. i might speculate about what the law is, but in our case, so much of what we do is illegal anyway, that it's kind of useless. i would report it if i felt a person was unfit to consent, if there were a minor involved, or if some third party was being harmed or imposed on without consenting to it.

6. Is it possible that cultural/societal attitudes towards individualism (e.g. everyone for him/herself) and towards more collective ways of thinking will influence one's responses to the above questions?

Of course.


pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 2/13/2011 9:49:03 AM >

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RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 9:08:11 AM   
happylittlepet


Posts: 289
Status: offline 		Thank you all for your responses! They reflect the many sides there are to this issue.

I would like to respond to each post, but that would make this thread way too long. Much of what is written speaks for itself.

When I followed the 'BDSM, abuse, and spin' thread, I got the impression that the preferred standard is 'do not interfere'. If someone interferes they do that for the wrong reason, e.g. white knight issues. This didn't sit well with me. Another point that stood out was 'this is hearsay, contains drama, therefore: do not touch'. Yet the authorities rely on hearsay to find cases of abuse that they would not become aware of otherwise. Of course there is a huge difference between the authorities taking action and I, based on what is said to me. Yet once I become aware, through direct observation or hearsay, I can't and won't ignore it. Just as much as I value my individual freedom, I want others to be as free, and not doing things against their will or better judgment.

I will respond to a few posts, either to clear something up, answer a question, ask a question, or because something stands out to me.






_____________________________

There are no rules, there is only compassion.

Simple religion:
There is no need for temples,
No need for complicated philosophies
My brain and my heart are my temples
My philosophy is kindness (DL)

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 9:22:03 AM   
happylittlepet


Posts: 289
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
Being in law enforcement, I am very aware of what the law is in regards to abuse and the reporting of such.
However, I never, absolutly never, cross a line that is not mine to cross. If, IF, one of the parties comes to me and states that they wish to make a legal report on 'said abuse', then all I can do is steer them towards the proper channels in doing so. I do NOT become personally involved.


Will you respond differently when a close friend or family member comes to you with the same information?

quote:


quote:

Based on 4. I have the impression that the authorities want people to report their suspicions because the authorities understand that a victim might not be able to leave/see what is going on. Also, the victim is not held responsible for the abuse occurring. It is the abuser who needs to be stopped. Intervention or at least investigation is therefore necessary. As the victim might not see what is going on, is her/his choice to remain in the situation for you an indication that everything is ok?

I refuse to even comment on the stupidity of the above statements.

I will try to clear this up when I respond to LadyPact's post.

Is it necessary to use the word 'stupidity'?


_____________________________

There are no rules, there is only compassion.

Simple religion:
There is no need for temples,
No need for complicated philosophies
My brain and my heart are my temples
My philosophy is kindness (DL)

'There's a fire burning in my heart'

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 9:25:59 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		She didn't call you stupid. She called the statement stupid. Big difference.

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RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 9:29:28 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		That was a very short reply.

Notice I didn't call YOU short, just your reply.

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RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 9:30:38 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		Ha. It's all in the subtle details.

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RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 9:31:45 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		Actually, a question for the OP that I think needs clarifying...
When you talk about interfering, do you mean with people you know, or strangers or online?

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RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 9:34:35 AM   
happylittlepet


Posts: 289
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: strangedesire

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Those were two entirely different situations.

I wouldn't say that I would never interfere with an ongoing relationship, but I haven't seen a situation yet where I would.

I would be VERY prone to disrupting a bad scene at a party if I felt that the bottom was being abused.

Scene vs. relationship.  Different.



Why are they different, though? If I'm capable of consenting to something in the context of a relationship, aren't I capable of consenting to it in the context of a scene, as well?

I'm not attacking, but this topic in general is extremely interesting to me.



They were similar, to me at least: both threads described a 'scenario'. The OP of the one thread was scolded for 'hearsay, drama, white knight syndrome' etc., while the vague, unrelated to reality, scenario did not get that response.

Is there a difference in how one responds to becoming aware of abuse happening in the house beside you, in the life of a family member or friend, and in the relationship of two people involved in a scene you witness at a play party?

Of course, as is mentioned several times in other posts, if abuse takes place in a private setting, personal interference comes at great risk, and should therefore be dealt with by those who represent the law. At a play party, there hopefully is a DM, and other visitors, and interfering would therefore be less risky? 


_____________________________

There are no rules, there is only compassion.

Simple religion:
There is no need for temples,
No need for complicated philosophies
My brain and my heart are my temples
My philosophy is kindness (DL)

'There's a fire burning in my heart'

(in reply to strangedesire)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 10:13:04 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Will you respond differently when a close friend or family member comes to you with the same information?

My answer would be the same for family and friends. I learned early on in life NOT to interfer in a friends business, I will never make that mistake again. As for family, the only ones I have to interfer with are my kids, and I will not, under any circumstances, ever, interfer in their lives unless they come to me first and ask for help.

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RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 10:32:48 AM   
happylittlepet


Posts: 289
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

She didn't call you stupid. She called the statement stupid. Big difference.


You infer that I think she called me stupid, I didn't.

You feel the need to 'interfere' when I make a comment to someone else?

quote:


Actually, a question for the OP that I think needs clarifying...
When you talk about interfering, do you mean with people you know, or strangers or online?


1. DesFIP mentions the difference between responding to a friend and responding to a public situation where one sees strangers attack each other. In addition to that, online has many sides. When limiting that to these forums, and someone describes a possible abusive situation, and asks questions, then yes, I will respond. To me, the most important thing is that someone who senses that something in his/her relationship is off, and not sure why that is, and is asking about that online, walks away from that thread with more knowledge: that those feelings are valid, that one has choices, and that there are ways out, even if you don't see them. It's then up to that person to make choices and take action.

2. Each situation that I become aware of will require that I consider what my view is on the situation, and if and how I will respond. The question is how that awareness is connected to responsibility. For some, that feeling of responsibility is great, for others it's very low.

What I am reading in this thread I will consider as well.

Btw, I also widen my perspectives when I read your posts, and those of others, that lead me to ponder my own limits, why I have them, and what would happen if I let some/many of those limits go. I gladly have the 'interference' of others' experiences as expressed in their posts, as those experiences challenge me.

What would be your response to the question you asked me?




_____________________________

There are no rules, there is only compassion.

Simple religion:
There is no need for temples,
No need for complicated philosophies
My brain and my heart are my temples
My philosophy is kindness (DL)

'There's a fire burning in my heart'

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 10:42:11 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: happylittlepet
For some, that feeling of responsibility is great, for others it's very low.

Yes, I have an extremely strong sense of responsibility towards my own sense of ethics, integrity,and honor. So yeah, when I step out of my car at the convenience store and three black guys are dragging a girl along by her elbow you can bet I'm going to interfere -- uninvited -- and without any remorse. I would look at any male who didn't as defective. In my own personal sense of ethics, you just don't get to do that against her will and I will stop you if I'm able.

The bottom line is that I will act to support my honor, integrity, and ethics. Anyone I respected would also, even if I happen to personally disagree with their ethics.


_____________________________

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 10:46:10 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Op, I havent read all the replies... nor do I feel I need too to answer your question.

I interfer only when asked... and only to the extent that I am asked too.

I have witnessed a couple who enjoyed pain.. and enjoyed an audience while enjoying that pain. From the outside, it looked like total and complete abuse. Punches, slaps, kicks, bruising, cuts, welts, ect. Like a bar fight on saturday night between a drunken man and a woman... except this was their dynamic. Its what they both wanted, both enjoyed, both needed. Outside of this "scene", I have never seen a more loving couple. And pixie is far from a woman willing to be abused and stay silent if it wasnt what she wanted.

On the other hand, I have held women who have sobbed while dealing with the aftermath of a fight between them and their dominant partner, and worried myself sick as she drove back to be with him. I was asked to listen, not to interfer, and I accepted her wishes, letting her know she had a friend and a place to stay if she ever needed that.

In either case, the choice was left up to the "victim"

quote:

3. What carries more weight: the perception that standards like SSC are broken, your personal standards, or the private agreement between the parties involved?


The parties involved. Because if either woman had even hinted that they wanted out, they both knew I was more than willing to help them no matter what. First case, pixie wanted it. Second case, the woman admitted to her own part in the event and how she could have managed it better.

~ETA

Having read Jeff's response, I can also agree with his point of view. In his scenario, I would do the same. She may be willing, But i wont know until I make the attempt. But that I dont see as a BDSM dynamic when involving others without their consent... and I would definitely say my consent as a witness was not obtained.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 2/13/2011 10:49:03 AM >

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RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 11:04:03 AM   
gungadin09


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< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 2/13/2011 11:28:42 AM >

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RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 11:09:06 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Yes, I have an extremely strong sense of responsibility towards my own sense of ethics, integrity,and honor. So yeah, when I step out of my car at the convenience store and three black guys are dragging a girl along by her elbow you can bet I'm going to interfere -- uninvited -- and without any remorse. I would look at any male who didn't as defective. In my own personal sense of ethics, you just don't get to do that against her will and I will stop you if I'm able.

You know, this brings up an even bigger question that has yet to be actually clarified.

I took your question in the 'vein' that it was asked; meaning, would I interfer within a personal relationship between either friends, family, or strangers. My answer stands in regards to this.

However, leadership brought up a different scenario. One that does not portray a 'personal relationship' but instead, what could be construed as a random act of violence. I think that most of us would, without question, interfer in such a situation.

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RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 11:18:43 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: happylittlepet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

She didn't call you stupid. She called the statement stupid. Big difference.


You infer that I think she called me stupid, I didn't.

You feel the need to 'interfere' when I make a comment to someone else?

You were the one that had an issue with the word stupidity. Not me.
When you post something on a message board asking for responses...that's not interference.
When someone gets involved with someone else's private relationship unsolicited...that's interference.
quote:



quote:


Actually, a question for the OP that I think needs clarifying...
When you talk about interfering, do you mean with people you know, or strangers or online?


1. DesFIP mentions the difference between responding to a friend and responding to a public situation where one sees strangers attack each other. In addition to that, online has many sides. When limiting that to these forums, and someone describes a possible abusive situation, and asks questions, then yes, I will respond. To me, the most important thing is that someone who senses that something in his/her relationship is off, and not sure why that is, and is asking about that online, walks away from that thread with more knowledge: that those feelings are valid, that one has choices, and that there are ways out, even if you don't see them. It's then up to that person to make choices and take action.

2. Each situation that I become aware of will require that I consider what my view is on the situation, and if and how I will respond. The question is how that awareness is connected to responsibility. For some, that feeling of responsibility is great, for others it's very low.

What I am reading in this thread I will consider as well.

Btw, I also widen my perspectives when I read your posts, and those of others, that lead me to ponder my own limits, why I have them, and what would happen if I let some/many of those limits go. I gladly have the 'interference' of others' experiences as expressed in their posts, as those experiences challenge me.

What would be your response to the question you asked me?


I don't get involved with anyone's relationship unless asked for advice or help. This is in terms of people I know in the flesh.
If someone comes on a message board asking for advice and I have experience and feel like it, I'll give it. Other than that, it's none of my business.
I assume that people are adults and I'm not out to save em.
To me, interfering isn't acceptable because I define it as being unsolicited. I'm of the "mind your own business" camp and I sure as shit wouldn't want anyone butting their nose into my relationship.

Edited to add after reading the responses after yours...
Shore and I were in the airport at baggage claim when a man came running through, followed by a woman screaming and crying. She was shouting for someone to stop him because he had just punched her in the face. Shore grabbed him, put him in a head lock and held him up against the wall until security came. Then we got our luggage and left. She asked for help, he gave it. And then we left because it was no longer our business. Had we seen two people running without her screaming for help, we most likely would not have done a thing because we had no knowledge of why she was crying. That was something private between the two of them. That would have been interference and none of our business.

< Message edited by Aileen1968 -- 2/13/2011 11:24:05 AM >

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RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 11:25:40 AM   
ImaginativeWhims


Posts: 81
Joined: 2/8/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: happylittlepet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

She didn't call you stupid. She called the statement stupid. Big difference.


You infer that I think she called me stupid, I didn't.

You feel the need to 'interfere' when I make a comment to someone else?



I wish FT was here to see this, he'd do a cartwheel.


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RE: When is interfering acceptable? - 2/13/2011 12:10:50 PM   
FukinTroll


Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
Status: offline 		For me, I tend to avoid the public stuff unless it is on supervised lock down. I have to tip my hat to LadyPact, she can throw a party that I would not have to have bail money for.

Abuse, any form, pushes my immediate truculence button and turns me into a hands on troll that will most likely be going to jail. Prosecutors tend to get all knee jerky when you break of a floating rib of the offender with one lil finger.

Normally I can calmly and quietly say "let's turn this down a notch" when it gets rowdy, however some people are like rabid dogs who jus snap on a whim and the tunnel vision with the glowy red light at the end of it settles in on me. This is one of the big reasons I avoid the public thing, nilla and kink often... I have to know and understand the SSC is the hard line and trust that the host/hostess has everything in hand.

That being said there is a very very short list of places I will go and people I will go around.

P.S. LadyP, is the couch lumpy?


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