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RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 7:46:06 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I do think the people of AZ can self govern.  Why do they need us to dictate to them?

Good fences make good neighbors.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 7:52:51 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		PA   Actually i think it is more like good fences, land mines, automatic weapons, those sensors that people complain about that the military uses, and real enforcement.  


Joe.   Actually I got stopped for doing 68 in a 65 the other day by the Highway Patrol.  

Bring what to the table?   Whether or not to enforce the laws that people liked before they decided not to enforce them?

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 7:54:48 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
If that were true, then why not pass a law so that no one is illegal and then I will quit complaining because then anyone can come and go at will and be a citizen.  I complain because the Fed does not enforce it's own laws.   I complain because these people break the laws that are on the books and no one seems to care.    Why is it that you (not necessarily you specifically but in the more general sense) seem to support all this lawlessness and disregard for OUR laws?

I don't support it.

But I'm trying to be realistic.

What effect has the efforts to contain the problem had?

We built a fence that has done no good, we have vigilantes roaming the border, we've even sent in the military, and yet we still have the same problem.

And the ultimate fact is that there are employers who hire them, so if you truly believe it is such a problem then you are attacking it from the wrong end.


Yes, but conservatives can't attack it from the angle the President has been doing for nearly two years. That to them, would be agreeing that the President is doing something right and correct. Don't you know that conservatives believe the President does everything wrong? If the President states he likes chocolate chip cookies, conservatives immediately bash him for not liking peanut butter cookies. The next day, the President states he likes peanut butter cookies as well; so the conservatives feign amensia and state they've always been for sugar cookies.....and as such the President doesnt represent them.

Its a continious BS circle, conservatives play on daily basis. I'm tired of the little games conservatives play. They want something, THEY, come to the comprise table as adults FIRST. They prove beyond a shadow of doubt, they can behave with geniune honesty, calmness, and intelligence; and then we can do business. So long as their lackeys, minions, and thugs behave like 6th graders, there is no reason to bring the issue up for debate. That is whats called 'ground rules'. Conservatives dont like ground rules, since it sounds like......regulations. How often are conservatives infavor of regulations? Come on rulemylife, how often are then in favor of regulations?

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 7:57:08 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
PA   Actually i think it is more like good fences, land mines, automatic weapons, those sensors that people complain about that the military uses, and real enforcement.  


Joe.   Actually I got stopped for doing 68 in a 65 the other day by the Highway Patrol.  

Bring what to the table?   Whether or not to enforce the laws that people liked before they decided not to enforce them?


And do you still speed, KenDckey as a result? Where you speeding on any previous days?

To answer your question. To reform the immigration laws on the books. Is it not obvious some mechanics are just not working for us these days? The world is abit different from when those laws were enacted. The culture has changed as well. Surely this is not a surprise to you?

I read through the Kennedy/McCain bill of 2007 (which conservatives claim gives amesty to illegal immigrants) The bill really would have done much for the country's laws and the enforcement of those laws. Was it perfect? God No! But it was many steps in the right direction.

I just dont like the attitude conservatives have on any given subject matter these days. I'm not against them being passionate about their viewpoint on what/how the federal goverment should operate. I just dont like thugs armed with firearms, threatening armed rebellion if we dont cave in to their demands. They behave much like a 6th grader instead of an adult.

< Message edited by joether -- 2/15/2011 8:05:33 AM >

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:10:09 AM   
jack8007


Posts: 392
Joined: 8/14/2007
Status: offline 		and I'm sure we could go thru your house and find all sorts of building code violations.   Without a doubt, you are a long term perennial law-breaker, and the only way to keep you from breaking the law is to hang you.  Since deterrence is what we are looking for, it's probably best to torture you in front of your family first.   That will sure keep you from breaking the law again!  

Since you probably won't get it, that is not meant seriously, only as an example of where your logic is going.   68 in a 65 is for one reason only, and that is to finance the police.   Is that what you want?  Or are you just saying that injustice visited on you should be multiplied and spread around to everybody else?

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:13:32 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		In reply to both Sanity:

quote:

Endless waves of this invasion across our Southern border are making the United States into a third world country Marc, which is a looming humanitarian crisis for our children and our grandchildren.


And Ken:

quote:

If the Fed enforced the laws that are on the books do you think that AZ would be doing all this? Or do you think that allowing law breakers into the country is a good thing?


RANT WARNING! RANT WARNING! RANT WARNING!


You are both still focusing on how to solve the problem of illegal immigration – and I agree that it is a problem that need to be solved – but that is simply not the issue here. If a man is brought into an ER room with a broken leg it is not the doctor’s duty to think to himself: hmmm… I wonder if this guy is legal? I better check his ID. He might, after all be a drain on society. His only duty it to treat the injured man! Whether his patient is from this country or that country is not his concern! Whether he is rich or poor, black or white, liberal or conservative, fundamentalist Christian or atheist (etc, etc, etc,) is not his concern! His only concern – his ethical duty – is treating a broken leg!

All this searching out illegal aliens shit is disturbing to me! Even if the intent is not racist (an unlike some on these boards I give the benefit of the doubt to those who favor stricter law enforcement in this area) its effect can be. It smacks of too many episodes in human history of armed thugs kicking in doors to root out the evil “other.” You know who I mean, “those people,” those moral degenerates and intellectually backward morons who cause all our problems. God! If we could just get rid of all those _____ (insert your favorite group of people to hate here), then everything would get better! The economy would recover, test scores would go up and shit would start smelling like lilacs!

The fact of the matter is: there are twenty million illegals here and trying to root them out and deport them all will be of benefit to no one except self flattering, ego stroking, fucktards in love with their own notions of superiority and lacking any sense of empathy or compassion. I said that I favor increased border security and I mean that. But after that, the only practical course is amnesty for those already here unless we really want to witness scenes of people being dragged out of their homes and bussed in mass to the border while giving no thought to the emotional trauma inflicted by ripping families apart nor the damage we would do to an already faltering economy by removing twenty million workers and consumers (but hey, if it will make us feel better about ourselves, maybe that will be a small price to pay).

It is one thing to begin legal deportation proceedings against an illegal immigrant who has been discovered in the normal course of events (say, after having been arrested for committing a crime), it is another to turn our doctors and teachers and whoever else into Gestapo thugs looking at everyone with suspicion.

I need a cup of coffee.


< Message edited by Marc2b -- 2/15/2011 8:17:07 AM >

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:18:33 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Both parties wanted and want Amnesty.

They will cram it in.  You watch.  Then 20 years later they will want amnesty again.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:18:35 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		Joe   my attitude is easy, enforce it or eliminate it.   Either way is cool.   Personally I think we should enforce it, but if congress eliminates entrance to the US laws, then cool.   Anyone can come and they won't be illegal.   You are the one that seems to be defending the broke system.

Jack.   My house was built in 1978.   So we have to drag out that code book.   Things like the requirement for GFI near the kitchen/bathroom sinks, etc, don't apply, even tho they are in the code today.   And yes, my house was inspected in 2003 for code violations.  And I have chosen to improve some things that aren't violations like the GFI.   And in stead of having GFI plugs, I opted for GFI breakers  lol   How many people do you know will go to that extra expense.   Oh and my propane for my bbq is stored in my shed which is both steel and marked with both fire and UN markings so fire knows what to expect.   lol  

And Joe,   I am not complaining I got stopped.   I violated the law.   Even tho I did it inadvertently.   So isn't a problem as far as I am concerned.   you seem to be upset at it tho.

(in reply to jack8007)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:19:24 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		To Marc2b

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 2/15/2011 8:22:13 AM >

_____________________________

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Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:23:35 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		Marc   If it takes much more than accessing a data base, then I am not so sure they should be in the business of looking for illegals.   However, an illegal being at the ER itself is a drain on the system most of the time because they don't have insurance so they do have a vested interest.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:26:18 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Both parties wanted and want Amnesty.

They will cram it in. You watch. Then 20 years later they will want amnesty again.


I recall a good portion of the right screaming against it. I do not favor amnesty before (if we ever actually get around to it) increasing border security - only after. It is a matter of practicality amongst other things.




_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:29:08 AM   
jack8007


Posts: 392
Joined: 8/14/2007
Status: offline 		AZ has peculiar circumstances.   By & large, it's a place where people would like to preserve the rural, Old West notions.  OTOH, they have recently (20 years) been thru massive real estate booms that inevitably draws hordes of construction workers, many illegal - and they also have problems with the seriously bad guys that can;t make it across the CA border.   And of course, they like to sell those hi-capacity magazines to the Mexican cartels, so it's a sort of one-stop shopping, bring your illegal people & drugs, we'll give you illegal guns.  (OK that's exaggerated, but there is a small basis, and that is what they are afraid of, even if they refuse to recognize their own part in the problem.)

So if you look at the AZ law, all it does is repeat the Federal laws, BUT it also allows a private right of action for ANY citizen to sue the sheriff if he thinks the sheriff isn't arresting illegals.   Basically, it allows every citizen to become a private attorney general, and suck the state treasury hunting down people who he thinks might be illegal.   The problem is, the immigration code doesn't make a person illegal for language or skin color, and Joe Citizen has no clue whether a person is illegal or not, and in fact Joe Citizen did nothing to earn the fact that his momma dropped him on US soil.

So it's just not well thought out.  It's pure spite and anger with the fact that their economy and world is out of their control.   Welcome to the world - you know?!   If you can't control your life, you can at least take it out on somebody weaker than you - because sure that's what John Wayne would do - don't you think?



(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:33:49 AM   
cuckoldmepls


Posts: 855
Joined: 11/29/2007
Status: offline 		Even New Mexico's New Governor Martinez is against Illegal Immigration. The argument that republicans are for amnesty is totally false. Only the top republican leadership that was led by bush supported amnesty, and a republican Congress blocked him

Open borders nuts want you to believe that it won't do any good to vote for a republican so they can import another 50 million socialist voters from latin America.

It will never end unless we end it now. It's just like the out of control spending. It's now or never.

http://babelishere.webs.com/aware.html

(in reply to jack8007)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:37:52 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:


To Marc2b


I appreciate the compliment but truth be told, I don't rock. Ellen Page rocks, but I don't. The best I can manage is a half-assed version of the Safety Dance.

I need another cup of coffee.

NOTE TO MODS (just in case): Ellen was 19 when she made that so, despite appearances, she is safe to oggle.



_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:40:43 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		Jack   we can already sue     http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000242----000-.html



(in reply to jack8007)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:44:11 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		My house was built so long ago- they did not have records back then.  I assure you=-it breaks every code known to the free world.    lol

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:46:23 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		PA   maybe it should go on the register of historical places     ROFLMAO

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:51:50 AM   
jack8007


Posts: 392
Joined: 8/14/2007
Status: offline 		18 USC is the penal code.  Only the US Attorney can file a criminal action - *you* can't.    Notice the last sentence that a violator may be sentenced to death - private citizens don't have that remedy.

You can sue under other provisions for violations of YOUR rights - but you can't usually sue because the sheriff or another officer is failing to enforce the law against some other person.    That's what sovereign immunity, prosecutorial discretion, etc are all about.

I'm the first to say that I don't know everything - but you can't just pick something up (like title 18 of the US code) and assume you understand it.



(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:54:59 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Illegal aliens are only supposed to get, "emergency care only."
Child birth is not "emergency care." They're not supposed to get admitted to a hospital. Or to get treatment for cancer, dialysis, or other medical procedures.
And hospital personel are not "law enforcers" when they report an illegal alien anymore than anyone in here who calls the police when they see someone breaking into their neighbor's house. You're "reporting" a crime not "enforcing" the law. Big differance there!
As long as you keep "giving" things to illegal aliens you'll get,.....more illegal aliens.
It's odd that some people think that another "amnesty" will solve this problem. We've had what, eight "amnesties" so far?
Illegals simply think they can sneak in and wait for the "next" amnesty."
What if the congress just decided to provide medical care for.....Brazil? Instead of for the 50 million U.S. Citizens who don't have any?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Arizona is at it again - 2/15/2011 8:57:44 AM   
jack8007


Posts: 392
Joined: 8/14/2007
Status: offline 		What you're saying here is that the Republicans can't make up their mind any more than the Democrats can.

What you're NOT saying is that it isn't as simple as  legal or illegal.   The code (8 USC) and policies are incfredibly complex - and yet people want to make it more complex by complicating the 14th amendment.  Every individual has some reason to cross the border, whether they are going north, or south.    And truth be told, most Mexicans have far better reasons than most Americans.

What's really going on is that people are pissed off that everything isn't coming up roses like they thought it was, and they have this dumbass idea that the solution is to fight, instead of work together.

I've been in a few fights - well, more than a few - and I can't say I think it's a policy that improves much of anything.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 60
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