RE: Arizona is at it again

RE: Arizona is at it again (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 9:03:27 AM)
quote: republicans are for amnesty quote: ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls Even New Mexico's New Governor Martinez is against Illegal Immigration. The argument that republicans are for amnesty is totally false. Only the top republican leadership that was led by bush supported amnesty, and a republican Congress blocked him Open borders nuts want you to believe that it won't do any good to vote for a republican so they can import another 50 million socialist voters from latin America. It will never end unless we end it now. It's just like the out of control spending. It's now or never. http://babelishere.webs.com/aware.html http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.chron.com%2Fimmigration%2Farchives%2F2009%2F07%2Fpost_287.html&rct=j&q=republicans%20are%20for%20amnesty&ei=vrFaTaOPCYT68AbonvzHDQ&usg=AFQjCNEmcPWMAlhT4mI39JNdfvODx4c8ZQ&sig2=47niyGmNIZ9JRO5lcewkog&cad=rja

KenDckey -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 9:10:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jack8007 18 USC is the penal code. Only the US Attorney can file a criminal action - you can't. Notice the last sentence that a violator may be sentenced to death - private citizens don't have that remedy. You can sue under other provisions for violations of YOUR rights - but you can't usually sue because the sheriff or another officer is failing to enforce the law against some other person. That's what sovereign immunity, prosecutorial discretion, etc are all about. I'm the first to say that I don't know everything - but you can't just pick something up (like title 18 of the US code) and assume you understand it. Making assumptions that I don't understand are we? If he violates by not arresting them, then he is violating my rights if I have to spend one penny on them for whatever reason (including medical care at the ER that is covered by my increased insurance rate)

KenDckey -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 9:11:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jack8007 What you're saying here is that the Republicans can't make up their mind any more than the Democrats can. What you're NOT saying is that it isn't as simple as legal or illegal. The code (8 USC) and policies are incfredibly complex - and yet people want to make it more complex by complicating the 14th amendment. Every individual has some reason to cross the border, whether they are going north, or south. And truth be told, most Mexicans have far better reasons than most Americans. What's really going on is that people are pissed off that everything isn't coming up roses like they thought it was, and they have this dumbass idea that the solution is to fight, instead of work together. I've been in a few fights - well, more than a few - and I can't say I think it's a policy that improves much of anything. I have no reason or desire to go south of the border

jack8007 -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 9:19:04 AM)
No, you don't have the right to dictate national policy. Neither you nor any other private citizen does. You don't even have the right to dictate condo policy - until you can control a majority of votes, and even then, you may have constitutional issues. Nobody is violating your rights by enforcing any law in any particular way - because there is no private right to that effect. That's why we elect leaders, legislatures, etc. If you want somebody else pulled over for doing 68 in a 65, that's tough. Entirely apart from that, you have to realize that every law involves 2 steps - what we want, and what we budget for. We can legislate to fly to the moon, paint the Grand Canyon, or anything else. But until we budget for it, it doesn't happen. That's the fallacy of the social liberal/ fiscal conservative - or for that matter, the libertarian - wanting something for nothing is not a real brilliant plan.

jack8007 -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 9:20:25 AM)
You may not, but many other people do. We're not talking about you alone, we're talking about national policy.

joether -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 9:20:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Joe my attitude is easy, enforce it or eliminate it. Either way is cool. Personally I think we should enforce it, but if congress eliminates entrance to the US laws, then cool. Anyone can come and they won't be illegal. You are the one that seems to be defending the broke system. The system is broken in multiple places. I was stating that I liked the direction of the Kennedy/McCain bill of 2007. I'm for fixing the system, I am not for being inhuman or un-American to pull it off. We are a nation of laws, not a nation of dumb thugs. Eliminating it does not seem to be what conservatives want. I'm willing, like Democrats and the President to come half way; BUT, conservatives and Republicans have to come half way as well. We sit at the table like adult statemen, comprise on something conservatives want, and something liberals want, and even stuff moderates want (they really dont make a side so much as side with who they like). The problem with any immigration law, is that it will be a very complex solution that most conservatives just will not understand. They want limited goverment but simply don't understand that such a thing is impossible to properly govern 308 million Americans, given our wide range of cultures, ages, ethics, histories and religious/philosophical outlooks on life. quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey And Joe, I am not complaining I got stopped. I violated the law. Even tho I did it inadvertently. So isn't a problem as far as I am concerned. you seem to be upset at it tho. So your 'ok' with breaking the law in the first place, AFTER, you were stopped by law enforcement? Why were you speeding before hand? Or is it only illegal to speed over the limit, if law enforcement catchs you? Why are you not obeying the posted speed limit? That is what I am getting at with conservative's viewpoint towards illegal immigrants. They (the illegal immigrants) already know its illegal to hop the border. Are conservatives even human enough to ask why they do so, and in the numbers we have seen, without a racist mindset? They want to send back students who are graduating from our high schools and colleges that came here when they were four years old. We just paid all this money educating the student and now, we'll send them to another country (on the taxpayer's tab) so that country can benefit from our hard work for free. Does that sound like a good use of the taxpayer's dollar? That is REALLY what conservatives are arguing in favor of. Unlike the illegal immigrant who can only technically break that law once, you can speed over the limit at will. In Arizona its illegal (at a state level) to cross the border from Mexico into Arizona; just as its illegal to go over the posted speed limit. Yet, conservatives want one thing enforced beyond reaonsable measures and/or Constitutional limits, while ignoring the other. Doesn't work that way.

tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 9:23:47 AM)
quote: It is one thing to begin legal deportation proceedings against an illegal immigrant who has been discovered in the normal course of events (say, after having been arrested for committing a crime), it is another to turn our doctors and teachers and whoever else into Gestapo thugs looking at everyone with suspicion. Exactly... many Drs and nurses I know wont touch this one. Then you will have a few who will turn vigilanty and turn everyone in. All this will do is drive up the prices of stolen identities. quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Marc If it takes much more than accessing a data base, then I am not so sure they should be in the business of looking for illegals. However, an illegal being at the ER itself is a drain on the system most of the time because they don't have insurance so they do have a vested interest. Piggybacking onto the response to Marc... What data base are you looking for the medical community to access? Now you have increased cost associated with the pc checks of everyone who accesses medical care. A hospital is not the place to be waging wars against illegal immigration. Not only is it medically unethical, it creates a hostile environment in a place thats supposed to be for healing.

joether -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 9:31:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Making assumptions that I don't understand are we? If he violates by not arresting them, then he is violating my rights if I have to spend one penny on them for whatever reason (including medical care at the ER that is covered by my increased insurance rate) You make playing Devil's Advocate fun. :) If you violate the speed limit, but dont turn yourself in, you are forcing the taxpayer to hire police officers in greater numbers, to make sure the law is obeyed in the first place. If your expecting illegal immigrants to obey and respect the laws of the state and the federal goverment, why are you breaking the law? Why should I have to pay the medical bill of yours, when you drove over the speed limit and caused an accident? Not that you actually did, but as an example. When your comatose body is hauled in to the ER with no ID, the doctors are not going to wait to see if your in this country legally or not.....or if you have the ability to pay for it. They'll get to work immediately to give you life saving care and stabilize your injuries. Because that's their F-ing job! That's why we (The US Taxpayer) pays Medical Doctors to practice medicine, and Lawyers to practice law (in the form of student loans and grants).

KenDckey -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 9:35:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Joe my attitude is easy, enforce it or eliminate it. Either way is cool. Personally I think we should enforce it, but if congress eliminates entrance to the US laws, then cool. Anyone can come and they won't be illegal. You are the one that seems to be defending the broke system. The system is broken in multiple places. I was stating that I liked the direction of the Kennedy/McCain bill of 2007. I'm for fixing the system, I am not for being inhuman or un-American to pull it off. We are a nation of laws, not a nation of dumb thugs. Eliminating it does not seem to be what conservatives want. I'm willing, like Democrats and the President to come half way; BUT, conservatives and Republicans have to come half way as well. We sit at the table like adult statemen, comprise on something conservatives want, and something liberals want, and even stuff moderates want (they really dont make a side so much as side with who they like). The problem with any immigration law, is that it will be a very complex solution that most conservatives just will not understand. They want limited goverment but simply don't understand that such a thing is impossible to properly govern 308 million Americans, given our wide range of cultures, ages, ethics, histories and religious/philosophical outlooks on life. quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey And Joe, I am not complaining I got stopped. I violated the law. Even tho I did it inadvertently. So isn't a problem as far as I am concerned. you seem to be upset at it tho. So your 'ok' with breaking the law in the first place, AFTER, you were stopped by law enforcement? Why were you speeding before hand? Or is it only illegal to speed over the limit, if law enforcement catchs you? Why are you not obeying the posted speed limit? That is what I am getting at with conservative's viewpoint towards illegal immigrants. They (the illegal immigrants) already know its illegal to hop the border. Are conservatives even human enough to ask why they do so, and in the numbers we have seen, without a racist mindset? They want to send back students who are graduating from our high schools and colleges that came here when they were four years old. We just paid all this money educating the student and now, we'll send them to another country (on the taxpayer's tab) so that country can benefit from our hard work for free. Does that sound like a good use of the taxpayer's dollar? That is REALLY what conservatives are arguing in favor of. Unlike the illegal immigrant who can only technically break that law once, you can speed over the limit at will. In Arizona its illegal (at a state level) to cross the border from Mexico into Arizona; just as its illegal to go over the posted speed limit. Yet, conservatives want one thing enforced beyond reaonsable measures and/or Constitutional limits, while ignoring the other. Doesn't work that way. Joe you are right The laws are complex and do require fixing. But untill they are fixed we shouldn't be ignoring them, we should be enforcing them. Also I think you missed the operative word "inadvertantly" on my traffic stop. I oppsed and got busted. I was wrong. The problem is? quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: It is one thing to begin legal deportation proceedings against an illegal immigrant who has been discovered in the normal course of events (say, after having been arrested for committing a crime), it is another to turn our doctors and teachers and whoever else into Gestapo thugs looking at everyone with suspicion. Exactly... many Drs and nurses I know wont touch this one. Then you will have a few who will turn vigilanty and turn everyone in. All this will do is drive up the prices of stolen identities. quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Marc If it takes much more than accessing a data base, then I am not so sure they should be in the business of looking for illegals. However, an illegal being at the ER itself is a drain on the system most of the time because they don't have insurance so they do have a vested interest. Piggybacking onto the response to Marc... What data base are you looking for the medical community to access? Now you have increased cost associated with the pc checks of everyone who accesses medical care. A hospital is not the place to be waging wars against illegal immigration. Not only is it medically unethical, it creates a hostile environment in a place thats supposed to be for healing. Read the post Tazzy. I said If it took much more than. I didn't say that there was one. and yeah I agree, most docs and nurses don't want to do that.

tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 9:45:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Illegal aliens are only supposed to get, "emergency care only." Child birth is not "emergency care." They're not supposed to get admitted to a hospital. Or to get treatment for cancer, dialysis, or other medical procedures. And hospital personel are not "law enforcers" when they report an illegal alien anymore than anyone in here who calls the police when they see someone breaking into their neighbor's house. You're "reporting" a crime not "enforcing" the law. Big differance there! As long as you keep "giving" things to illegal aliens you'll get,.....more illegal aliens. It's odd that some people think that another "amnesty" will solve this problem. We've had what, eight "amnesties" so far? Illegals simply think they can sneak in and wait for the "next" amnesty." What if the congress just decided to provide medical care for.....Brazil? Instead of for the 50 million U.S. Citizens who don't have any? No hospital will turn away a woman in labor. It is considered an emergency case, regardless of how YOU view it. The anti-dumping laws ensure that treatment. Dialysis is a life saving treatment... many hospitals have their own dialysis units in house for emergent cases. There are also many charities closely working with hospitals to cover expenses such as cancer, dialysis, strokes and even childbirth. quote: What if the congress just decided to provide medical care for.....Brazil? Instead of for the 50 million U.S. Citizens who don't have any? Why not? We already pay for the health care, through the war funds, for Iraq and Afghanistan. http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/media/2007/07/healthcareworldbig.jpg http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-dorlester/guaranteed-health-care-in_b_280528.html

windchymes -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 9:51:30 AM)
Tazzy's right, a woman in labor IS considered an emergency care case. The baby will be delivered, and when mom & baby are stablized, they'll be discharged. And that baby's an American citizen. [:o]

joether -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 9:53:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey And Joe, I am not complaining I got stopped. I violated the law. Even tho I did it inadvertently. So isn't a problem as far as I am concerned. you seem to be upset at it tho. You were speeding in the first place. You were breaking the law, and not holding yourself accountable. If your going to state illegal immigrants have to be held accountable for the law, then its reaonable to assume the person calling for such action obeys...ALL...the laws (not just the ones he wants to obey).

tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 9:54:52 AM)
And that baby's an American citizen. Now that is something that needs to be changed.

joether -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 9:56:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl And that baby's an American citizen. Now that is something that needs to be changed. Its getting off topic..... But why?

jack8007 -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 10:00:01 AM)
so what would you change it to? Any way you cut it, it's going to be WAY more complex, and yes, police will be either checking (or ignoring) EVERYBODY's papers. Do you know why & how it got that way in the 1st place? Do you suspect that the loyalty of the 442nd RCT was less, because they were Nisei? Or John McCain's loyalty was less because he was born in Panama? Or that Charlie Manson, or Bernie Madoff, were loyal citizens because they were born in the USA?

tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 10:05:07 AM)
It is my belief that citizenship should follow the parents. Its not popular, but its how I feel. Take the hotel in NY that I posted about months ago. They offer rooms for up to 30 days... women fly in from other countries, get all comfy cozy, then wait for their babies, give birth, and return to their countries, their child assured of the benefits of having dual citizenship. Why are they afforded that? Why are we giving legal status to a child born to an illegal parent? Its been proven that through that legal child, benefits can begin. Its difficult to deport a legal citizen, even a citizen thats just a few days old... and that is a slope I dont believe anyone wants to start to slide upon. But an illegal action should not end up with a legal one. If I were to rob a bank (an illegal action) and gave some to my son, and the law discovered it, would he be entitled to keep any of the money? Of course not. I am not saying women come to this country pregnant, in fact, most of the births to illegal mothers happen a year or more after they get here. But why are we giving a legal claim to those who have committed a crime?

tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 10:08:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jack8007 so what would you change it to? Any way you cut it, it's going to be WAY more complex, and yes, police will be either checking (or ignoring) EVERYBODY's papers. Do you know why & how it got that way in the 1st place? Do you suspect that the loyalty of the 442nd RCT was less, because they were Nisei? Or John McCain's loyalty was less because he was born in Panama? Or that Charlie Manson, or Bernie Madoff, were loyal citizens because they were born in the USA? McCain was born to US parents in the service to this country. If citizenship follows the parents, he would be a citizen regardless. The same with Mason or Madoff, as far as I know both were born to US parents.

jack8007 -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 10:14:37 AM)
where exactly is this? AFAIK, airlines won't let women past 7 months board aircraft. I suspect you have heard a story that has been blown far beyond the writer's imagination.

jack8007 -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 10:16:28 AM)
I'm sure you feel that way. What do you feel about how that would work? and what it would cost to run? and why a person with US citizen ancestors might have not been in the US for generations, and be voting from the Kremlin?

tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/15/2011 10:26:32 AM)
The Marmara Manhattan http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article7144209.ece http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/birth-tourism-industry-markets-us-citizenship-abroad/story?id=10359956 And, yes, its a two month stay. Its been a while since I read or posted on this topic. The hotel estimates the total cost of the package at $45,000. Most women stay for two months, Ballantine said, and they make medical arrangements on their own. "Guests arrange and pay for these by themselves," she said of hospital costs that can approach $30,000. For those with the means to pay, it's a small price to give a child the full benefits of U.S. citizenship, including the ability to travel freely to and from the United States, easy access to a U.S. education and a chance to start a life here. "We found a company on the Internet and decided to go to Austin [Texas] for our child's birth," Turkish mother Selin Burcuoglu told Istanbul's Hurriyet Daily News. "I don't want [my daughter] to deal with visa issues. American citizenship has so many advantages." The greatest of those advantages may be the ability of the citizen child to later sponsor the legal immigration of his or her entire family permanently to this country, experts say.

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