RE: Arizona is at it again (Full Version)

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jack8007 -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 4:22:58 PM)

I think my original statement was that the incidence of bribery at US consular posts was low.  You found a single case, and I'd guess there are probably around 3-400 US consular posts.  This article
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/14/AR2006071401525.html claims around 20 per year at ports of entry.   I think that makes my point.

But if you want to get into the US, the best way to do it is at the port of entry.   Don't bother with getting a visa.    If you've ever driven through San Ysidro northbound, there's probably around a 50% chance they aren't even going to ask you any serious questions.

Based on the nation's general experience, I suspect it's probably true that stopping traffic to check every corner would cause more damage than taking our chances.   I would guess that if there's going to be a problem, it's less likely to come in passenger traffic than in freight.

No, I don't see that that generalizations about where a person is born, or who his parents are, are a strong predictor of how useful s/he is going to be to society.   Economic generalizations are more likely to be accurate - and try to tell anybody that we're going to legislate along the lines of who has the money.   





tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 4:47:11 PM)

And you also asked that I find one case. But since you want more.

A former US embassy official in Guyana, Thomas Patrick Carroll is to be released from a Chicago federal prison this week.

According to the Stabroek News, Carroll has served a truncated term for his involvement in the sale of US visas and the bribery of an official at the US embassy in Georgetown.

Carroll, Economic Affairs Officer at the US embassy in Guyana was arrested in March of 2000 for selling up to 800 visas for entry into the United States for bribes of between US$10,000 and US$15,000 each. He pleaded guilty to conspiracy to defraud the United States Government, issuing false visa documents and bribing an official.

http://www.caribbean360.com/index.php/business/9755.html

Criminal complaints filed by Assistant U.S. Attorney Larry Bardfeld in Miami federal court accuse former embassy employee Julieta Quiroz, 49, a naturalized U.S. citizen from Nicaragua, as well as Colombians Olga Elena RamM-mrez and her husband, Juan Carlos RamM-mrez, with conspiracy, bribery and visa fraud. Juan Carlos RamM-mrez laundered money in Mexico for an unspecified Colombian cocaine cartel, according to a court affidavit.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2004-04-07/news/0404070130_1_visa-fraud-fraudulent-visas-homeland-security

State Department finds that 71 people obtained fraudulent visas from United States Embassy in Qatar in 2000 and 2001, in some cases in exchange for bribes of more than $10,000; Rasmi al-Shannaq, who got such a visa, was roommate in Washington suburbs with Hani Hanjour and Nawaq Alhazmi, two of Sept 11 hijackers; two other recipients of the illegal visas are also suspected of 'some relationship' to hijackers

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/b/bribery/index.html?query=UNITED%20STATES%20FOREIGN%20SERVICE&field=des&match=exact

SACRAMENTO -- A Newark resident pleaded guilty Friday to bribing two married State Department employees at the U.S. Embassy in Sri Lanka to issue scores of visas to foreign nationals who wanted to enter the United States.

Rachhpal Singh, 32, pleaded guilty to conspiracy for defrauding the United States, bribing officials, and committing visa fraud.

Rajwant Virk of Herndon, Va., already has pleaded guilty to the same charge.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-6966856.html

YEREVAN, FEBRUARY 4, ARMENPRESS: The U.S. Embassy in Armenia
forwarded to Armenpress a statement issued jointly by the Justice
Department and State Department of the United States of America in
Washington, DC, February 3, which says that the United States
Attorney Kenneth L. Wainstein and Ambassador Frank Taylor, Assistant
Secretary for the United States Department of State's Bureau of
Diplomatic Security, announced that a federal Grand Jury in the
District of Columbia returned on February 2 a thirteen-count
indictment charging Piotr Zdzislaw Parlej, a 45-year-old United
States citizen formerly employed as a Consular Associate in the
United States Embassy in Yerevan, Armenia, with bribery and visa
fraud.

http://www.armeniandiaspora.com/showthread.php?17804-US-consular-associate-in-Armenia-indicted-on-bribery-amp-visa-fraud

A 45-year-old Pakistani man was ordered held without bail on federal bribery and visa fraud charges yesterday, becoming the second person authorities have connected to a visa scheme operated out of a U.S. embassy in the Persian Gulf.

Zia Ullah Hameedullah appeared briefly at a detention hearing in U.S. District Court in Baltimore, a day after entering the country in federal custody. Another hearing has been scheduled for Monday.

Hameedullah is the second person charged in the scheme, joining Ramsi Al-Shannaq, who has been held in federal custody since his high-profile arrest in July.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2002-11-15/news/0211150360_1_visa-fraud-scheme-hijackers

WASHINGTON, April 30 (AFP) - An American couple who worked at the US embassy in Sri Lanka pleaded guilty on Friday to conspiracy, bribery and visa fraud stemming from a visa-selling scam targeting Indian and Vietnamese nationals, the State Department said.

Acey Johnson and Long Lee, a husband and wife who had both been employed by the US Foreign Service, admitted in a US District Court in California to having sold some 150 non-immigrant US visas at the embassy in Colombo between 2000 and 2003, the department said.

http://www.island.lk/2004/05/02/news06.html



jack8007 -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 5:44:43 PM)

So do you think that is a high incidence compared to other law enforcement agencies?   Like for example the CBP that usually reports 20 per year?

For that matter, why does it even matter?  As I recall, you think that people sneaking in to drop US citizen kids is a problem, because - well, presumably because those kids will be worse than your neighbors - ?  Or they're here to pollute your precious bodily fluids?  Or what?

I'm thinking we're probably way past the point of any relevance here.



tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 6:48:02 PM)

Does it have to be a high incidence for it to be happening? You are the one stating you couldnt remember one case. I have pulled up over a half dozen.

quote:

For that matter, why does it even matter? As I recall, you think that people sneaking in to drop US citizen kids is a problem, because - well, presumably because those kids will be worse than your neighbors - ? Or they're here to pollute your precious bodily fluids? Or what?


I merely said it shouldnt be an automatic line to citizenship. Its observed by less than 20% of the countries. Now, I defy you to produce some post where I even mention my neighbors. And what bodily fluids? Is this how you are going to react when you are proven wrong... like a child caught with his hands in the cookie jar and you start making up stories?



jack8007 -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 7:22:37 PM)

I said I thought there was a low incidence of fraud in consular posts.   You haven't addressed that assertion.  
I said I didn't remember any - but I remember plenty of bribery cases on the border.    You still haven't dealt with that.  You're misstating my remarks.

And the relevance is that you don't believe birth in the US should make a person a citizen, because you don't think the 14th amendment should apply.

Without trying to get into issues like how the 14th amendment was meant to overrule Dred Scott, and why it ties citizenship to due process & equal protection, let's just think of this - what's the alternative?   Proving your citizenship through your parents?   How exactly would that work?   Because I can tell you from experience - it's expensive and dubious.   Do you really want EVERYBODY to carry papers that have to be reviewed like tax returns?

There's some pretty basic concepts here that many people think are central to American values, specifically that parentage or place of birth is not a measure of a person's worth, and most Americans have little interest in somebody else's ancestry.

So is this how you're going to behave when people try to help you understand - like a snotty little sea lawyer, assuming technicalities in an ocean of law?





tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 7:28:56 PM)

quote:

do you know of any incidences of bribery in US consulates?

I tend to hear about law enforcement in that area because I watch industry publications. A loose estimate would be that the most bribery busts come at ports of entry - individual agents get bribed. Less common are bribes to agents inside the USA. I don't recall hearing of a consular bribery case recently.


THIS is what you said.

THIS is what I addressed.

quote:

I said I thought there was a low incidence of fraud in consular posts. You haven't addressed that assertion.
I said I didn't remember any - but I remember plenty of bribery cases on the border. You still haven't dealt with that. You're misstating my remarks.


I have shown there is more than a "low" incidence at consular posts, as addressed.



jack8007 -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 7:35:22 PM)

and what exactly is the relevance that 20% of the world's states recognize citizenship by place of birth?  That particular calculation is based on the assumption that Swaziland counts for the same weight as the USA.    Do you think we should take for example Cambodia as an example to follow?   If all the other children played in traffic, would you do the same?

That's a fair example of your misunderstandings - who CARES?



tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 7:36:37 PM)

quote:

So is this how you're going to behave when people try to help you understand - like a snotty little sea lawyer, assuming technicalities in an ocean of law?


I can be sweet as pie, when treated with respect. Your previous post was snide and condescending, which is what you received in return. Dont like how I behave, try looking at your own behavior first. I give what I get.

quote:

There's some pretty basic concepts here that many people think are central to American values, specifically that parentage or place of birth is not a measure of a person's worth, and most Americans have little interest in somebody else's ancestry.


No one said it was. I have no clue where you are getting this from.

quote:

Proving your citizenship through your parents? How exactly would that work? Because I can tell you from experience - it's expensive and dubious. Do you really want EVERYBODY to carry papers that have to be reviewed like tax returns?


Most of us already carry papers. How often do you leave your home without your wallet? I never leave mine. In other countries, dont they suggest you carry your passport?

I didnt ask anyone ot prove their citizenship through their parents. Citizenship should be the same as their parents. French mother, american father, then dual. French tourists on a visa, then the baby is french. Illegal immigrants from mexico, the baby is mexican.

Im curious what is so hard to understand about that.



tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 7:40:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jack8007

and what exactly is the relevance that 20% of the world's states recognize citizenship by place of birth?  That particular calculation is based on the assumption that Swaziland counts for the same weight as the USA.    Do you think we should take for example Cambodia as an example to follow?   If all the other children played in traffic, would you do the same?

That's a fair example of your misunderstandings - who CARES?



You must since you keep responding. My point was the US is the largest country in that 20% that offers birth right citizenship. The other devloped countries have a modified version of jus soli... perhaps looking that up may help you understand. Perhaps not.



jack8007 -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 7:41:18 PM)

No, you have not tried to deal with the rate of fraud, nor compare it to any other rate in any other group.   You've found maybe a dozen examples in as many years.   You have not attempted to compare that rate to the rate of fraud anywhere else.

Rate does not equal absolute numbers, as most of us learned around 6th grade, and you're trying to blame your misunderstanding on me.

But you know, nobody cares - we get it - you have your own theories of citizenship, and I strongly recommend you write your Congressperson with all your theories - because I'm not interested.



Marini -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 7:42:02 PM)

tazzy, America is on the brink of soon being a 3rd world country.

If any American citizen falls on hard times, they need to pretend to not be a citizen, and they will probably get more assistance.

tazzy, how hard is it to become an Australian citizen????

Very fucking hard, that is one of the reasons the minimum wage is $15 an hour and they have very, very generous benefits, to their CITIZENS.

I am going to have to look up, how generous they are to non-citizens.

Oh tweakabelle, where are you lassie from down under?
Hope you see my question, mate.



jack8007 -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 7:50:46 PM)

If you don't understand, try reading the code.   Then you can start on the cases.  

There's about 200 years of history of how we got where we are today, and you might be smart to try to understand that before you make up your mind about changing it.    

It's very easy to see problems in front of you - not so easy to see the problems your solutions will cause.   It's usually a good idea to look before you leap - but don't let me stop you.








tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 7:50:51 PM)

quote:

No, you have not tried to deal with the rate of fraud, nor compare it to any other rate in any other group. You've found maybe a dozen examples in as many years. You have not attempted to compare that rate to the rate of fraud anywhere else.


I answered your petty questions. You believed I could not find one case. When I did, you got snotty and said One doesnt make it mean anything. So I found more. Now you are prattling on about the rates. You keep changing the goal post because you are in a "dominant snit". Get the fuck over it. I proved you wrong. Deal with it.


quote:

Rate does not equal absolute numbers, as most of us learned around 6th grade, and you're trying to blame your misunderstanding on me.


There is no misunderstanding. You got proved wrong. Now you are pissy. Your problem, not mine.

quote:

But you know, nobody cares - we get it - you have your own theories of citizenship, and I strongly recommend you write your Congressperson with all your theories - because I'm not interested.


No, YOU dont care... but why are you still here whining?

And why dont you just show us how intelligent you are and toss out those rates you now demand.... [:D]



tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 7:51:59 PM)

Ah Marini, I have no clue how hard it is to become an Aussie... despite being called tazzy... lol



tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 7:52:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jack8007

If you don't understand, try reading the code.   Then you can start on the cases.  

There's about 200 years of history of how we got where we are today, and you might be smart to try to understand that before you make up your mind about changing it.    

It's very easy to see problems in front of you - not so easy to see the problems your solutions will cause.   It's usually a good idea to look before you leap - but don't let me stop you.



And you are still whining about something you dont care about. Are you in lust with me?



jack8007 -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 7:56:13 PM)

and that is because the other developed countries have different histories than we do.   The prime example of citizenship by blood is Germany, which has had real issues about race - would you like to follow their example in this?

You've been very snotty about your intellectual tangents, and consistently misstated what I've said, and I've been more than patient with your accusations.     Being skeptical is fine - mischaracterizing statements is not.





jack8007 -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 7:57:58 PM)

I have an obviously misplaced sense of obligation to answer. 

Had I known you were only about generalized race fears, I would have never spoken.



tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 8:00:57 PM)

I showed what you stated. You posted it. Now you want to try and insist someone changed it.

quote:

A significant reform to the nationality law was passed by the Bundestag (the German parliament) in 1999, and came into force on 1 January 2000. The new law makes it somewhat easier for foreigners resident in Germany on a long-term basis, and especially their German-born children, to acquire German citizenship.


And whats wrong with that? Its what most nations have gone too.



tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 8:02:25 PM)

quote:

Had I known you were only about generalized race fears, I would have never spoken.


You know, you should really know something about the people you call racist before doing so. I dont deal with racists or those who play such a card during a debate. Our discussion is at an end.




jack8007 -> RE: Arizona is at it again (2/16/2011 8:05:42 PM)

Don't you know there is a major difference between acquiring nationality, and being born into it?

And don't you know that German citizenship law has historically been based on blood?

And you don't see how that got them into trouble in 1939?

You can't walk in and pick up the 1st thing you see and honestly think you understand what's going on.  



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