Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question

Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (Full Version)

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heartfeltsub -> Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 8:02:34 AM)
Not wanting to derail IW's thread, an additional punishment question came up, not only from that thread, but also from a conversation with a Dominant friend of mine the other day. Although i know a lot of people on here don't have a punishment dynamic, my question is directed more at the Dominant member of those relationships that do have a punishment dynamic, but as is the case anyone can answer. The question is this: i understand that some, not all s-types feel the need for punishment to feel forgiven or to move on from a incident where they might have been displeasing and that having a way to "atone" is important to them, However from the Dominant perspective, is that why you have a punishment dynamic in your relationship, for the benefit of the s-type, so that they can get that sense of atonement or is there some additional reason? ie. What do you as the Dominant get out of having a punishment dynamic in your relationship and would you have one if the s-type didn't "need" one? Part of the reason for my question is this. In the two relationships that i personally know that have a punishment dynamic in place, in one the "slaves" are so disobedient and manipulative, it seems to be the only way to keep them in line. In the other, it seems to be in place or rather is used when the D-type is upset about something and, in my opinion, takes that upset out of his slave, blaming her. So in my opinion, neither of those instances is a "good" example of a punishment dynamic. So that is why i am asking on here. Thank you in advance for your responses, heartfelt

IronBear -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 8:28:10 AM)
Rather than a punishment dynamic, I prefer to have an Education Program. I believe that if a girl screws up, the problem may rest in plart with me for not spending the necessary time in training or explaining what is required or I failed to verify that she has completely understood. My answer is to retrain as well as explaining why some things need be done the way I expect or why they need to be done at all. I simply refuse to fall, back on the "Because I said so," reason or even "Because I can". Even in some cases which may be attention seeking, I prefer to issue additional tasks of an unpleasant type instead to use physical or corporal punishment. I can always remove privelages like wearing clothes in the home or remove favorite deserts from her dinner and there is the hated "Corner Time". When it comes to Corporal Punishment, I expect the girl to bed/ask if we can use this as a play basis later. She should understand that it takes little to bring out my inner Sadist.

ImaginativeWhims -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 8:53:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear Rather than a punishment dynamic, I prefer to have an Education Program. I believe that if a girl screws up, the problem may rest in plart with me for not spending the necessary time in training or explaining what is required or I failed to verify that she has completely understood. My answer is to retrain as well as explaining why some things need be done the way I expect or why they need to be done at all. I simply refuse to fall, back on the "Because I said so," reason or even "Because I can". Even in some cases which may be attention seeking, I prefer to issue additional tasks of an unpleasant type instead to use physical or corporal punishment. I can always remove privelages like wearing clothes in the home or remove favorite deserts from her dinner and there is the hated "Corner Time". When it comes to Corporal Punishment, I expect the girl to bed/ask if we can use this as a play basis later. She should understand that it takes little to bring out my inner Sadist. Takes notes Not to steal your mojo here IB, but I'll get it right eventually. I'm still working out the kinks (no pun intended) on a majority of the How's and Wherefore's. Good stuff, keep it comin'!

ImaginativeWhims -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 9:02:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub The question is this: i understand that some, not all s-types feel the need for punishment to feel forgiven or to move on from a incident where they might have been displeasing and that having a way to "atone" is important to them, However from the Dominant perspective, is that why you have a punishment dynamic in your relationship, for the benefit of the s-type, so that they can get that sense of atonement or is there some additional reason? ie. What do you as the Dominant get out of having a punishment dynamic in your relationship and would you have one if the s-type didn't "need" one? Part of the reason for my question is this. In the two relationships that i personally know that have a punishment dynamic in place, in one the "slaves" are so disobedient and manipulative, it seems to be the only way to keep them in line. In the other, it seems to be in place or rather is used when the D-type is upset about something and, in my opinion, takes that upset out of his slave, blaming her. So in my opinion, neither of those instances is a "good" example of a punishment dynamic. So that is why i am asking on here. Thank you in advance for your responses, heartfelt This is a fantastic take-off from my earlier thread, and I'm glad you took the time to draw it up anew rather than have it buried in the other. That said: For me, a punishment dynamic is based on the feel of the Sub/Slave in question. I tend to see that if a punishment dynamic is established early, it phases out over time due to the involved parties coming to a better understanding of the others needs. After looking at IB's post, I'm doing this the hard way through physical manipulation rather than behavioral modification, but... apples > oranges, oranges > apples, etc. If in the initial meetings it's decided that punishment isn't necessary for whatever reason (be it medical, or otherwise), then no... it's not necessary, as far as I'm concerned. For my views on what I've quoted of yours that is in italics, my answer is the same as yours and is bolded. There's no "right" and "wrong" where we travel as long as SSC is being observed, but we do all have our specific tastes.

agirl -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 9:20:25 AM)
We have a penalty system that has always worked well. This works because I'm less likely to, for example, stay up much past my bedtime when I know that it's a stroke per minute. It only applies to a few situations where I'm likely to be tempted to stray from the rule due to distractions. It's a you do that, I do this situation. It's effective because I don't like being cold-caned and the odd time that I have got distracted and clocked up 10mins worth, I sorely regretted it. He's not angry, cross, disappointed or bothered in the least and I don't go out of my way to ecrue it, either. We do have a punishment dynamic as well but I've only ever been punished a handful of times in years and years. agirl

LadyPact -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 9:40:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ImaginativeWhims There's no "right" and "wrong" where we travel as long as SSC is being observed, but we do all have our specific tastes. I hope that by "we" you are referring to you and your girl. Not the masses. quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub Not wanting to derail IW's thread, an additional punishment question came up, not only from that thread, but also from a conversation with a Dominant friend of mine the other day. Although i know a lot of people on here don't have a punishment dynamic, my question is directed more at the Dominant member of those relationships that do have a punishment dynamic, but as is the case anyone can answer. The question is this: i understand that some, not all s-types feel the need for punishment to feel forgiven or to move on from a incident where they might have been displeasing and that having a way to "atone" is important to them, However from the Dominant perspective, is that why you have a punishment dynamic in your relationship, for the benefit of the s-type, so that they can get that sense of atonement or is there some additional reason? ie. What do you as the Dominant get out of having a punishment dynamic in your relationship and would you have one if the s-type didn't "need" one? All of My dynamics have been punishment dynamics. In My case, it has nothing to do with the s type needing one. Rather, it has everything to do with what I expect to be My rights as an owner. It gives Me the inclusion of the type of corrective action that I feel fits the infraction. If I say that I expect obedience, but I get willful disobedience instead, where would I be if I didn't have some form of recourse? quote: Part of the reason for my question is this. In the two relationships that i personally know that have a punishment dynamic in place, in one the "slaves" are so disobedient and manipulative, it seems to be the only way to keep them in line. Wouldn't work for Me. My preference is to be in dynamics with those who want to submit. I want people who want to obey. If that's not the situation that I find Myself in, I get out. quote: In the other, it seems to be in place or rather is used when the D-type is upset about something and, in my opinion, takes that upset out of his slave, blaming her. So in my opinion, neither of those instances is a "good" example of a punishment dynamic. So that is why i am asking on here. Also wouldn't work for Me. Outside influences on Me don't play a part in what happens within the dynamic on a punishment scale. That would be like Me coming home and picking a fight with MP because I got pissed off at somebody else. quote: Thank you in advance for your responses, heartfelt You're welcome as always. It's nice to see you posting.

NihilusZero -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 9:47:31 AM)
Punishment can also work as an additional tactile form of communication between the D-type and s-type, where the expected severity of the punishment is meant to be a tangible illustration/parallel of the degree of discomfort/pain/disappointment the D-type felt when the violation was done. Sometimes the perspective and information of not just "X would be displeased with this" but also "this is what it feels like to X when this happens" is a useful system of empathy to place on the s-type in order to help correct a behavior or even just to better meld mindsets together.

leadership527 -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 9:51:51 AM)
The one time I punished Carol there was no higher purpose to it. She'd pissed me off. I tossed her in the bathroom (windowless), turnout out the light, closed the door, and told her to kneel there till I came to get her. I'd love to claim some sort of intellectual or spiritual purpose in it all, but the truth is I was pissed.

heartfeltsub -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 10:33:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl We have a penalty system that has always worked well. This works because I'm less likely to, for example, stay up much past my bedtime when I know that it's a stroke per minute. It only applies to a few situations where I'm likely to be tempted to stray from the rule due to distractions. It's a you do that, I do this situation. It's effective because I don't like being cold-caned and the odd time that I have got distracted and clocked up 10mins worth, I sorely regretted it. He's not angry, cross, disappointed or bothered in the least and I don't go out of my way to ecrue it, either. We do have a punishment dynamic as well but I've only ever been punished a handful of times in years and years. agirl Thanks for your response agirl. Is this punishment dynamic in place because it is something you need to stay obedient or whatever, or is it place because it is His desire to have it in place, meaning would you be obedient without it? Do you happen to know what if anything He gets out of having a punishment dynamic in place? Thanks again for your response, heartfelt

heartfeltsub -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 10:36:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear Rather than a punishment dynamic, I prefer to have an Education Program. I believe that if a girl screws up, the problem may rest in plart with me for not spending the necessary time in training or explaining what is required or I failed to verify that she has completely understood. My answer is to retrain as well as explaining why some things need be done the way I expect or why they need to be done at all. I simply refuse to fall, back on the "Because I said so," reason or even "Because I can". Even in some cases which may be attention seeking, I prefer to issue additional tasks of an unpleasant type instead to use physical or corporal punishment. I can always remove privelages like wearing clothes in the home or remove favorite deserts from her dinner and there is the hated "Corner Time". When it comes to Corporal Punishment, I expect the girl to bed/ask if we can use this as a play basis later. She should understand that it takes little to bring out my inner Sadist. Thank you for your response. Just to qualify, what i am talking about is not "play" S/M or funishment, but actual punishment that is completely separate from play. Do you use such a thing in your relationships and if you do, do you do so because it is something that the s-type needs for whatever reason, or do you also get something out of it. Thanks again, heartfelt

heartfeltsub -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 10:42:54 AM)
quote: All of My dynamics have been punishment dynamics. In My case, it has nothing to do with the s type needing one. Rather, it has everything to do with what I expect to be My rights as an owner. It gives Me the inclusion of the type of corrective action that I feel fits the infraction. If I say that I expect obedience, but I get willful disobedience instead, where would I be if I didn't have some form of recourse? Other than having some sort of recourse for disobedience, do you get something emotionally, mentally out of doing punishment? For example, the Dominant friend of mine that i referenced in the opening post says that punishment for Him, completely separate from S/M play was in place because of the s-type's need for forgiveness and atonement and He gets some satisfaction from helping a girl improve, be a better person, that sort of thing. i couldn't get an answer from Him about whether or not He would have a punishment dynamic in place if the s-type didn't feel that need to make atonement. So what if you were in a relationship where there was no deliberate disobedience, do you still feel the need of having a punishment dynamic and if so, is it just for as a recourse or for something else as well. Thanks for your response, heartfelt

Nanako -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 10:49:26 AM)
I posted my thoughts in great detail in the other thread. The direct link to my post is: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3569279 I hope everyone will read that who has an interest in the topic. In short, I don't like punishment personally, but I approve of it and think it's a good thing

Prinsexx -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 10:51:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub Not wanting to derail IW's thread, an additional punishment question came up, not only from that thread, but also from a conversation with a Dominant friend of mine the other day. Although i know a lot of people on here don't have a punishment dynamic, my question is directed more at the Dominant member of those relationships that do have a punishment dynamic, but as is the case anyone can answer. The question is this: i understand that some, not all s-types feel the need for punishment to feel forgiven or to move on from a incident where they might have been displeasing and that having a way to "atone" is important to them, However from the Dominant perspective, is that why you have a punishment dynamic in your relationship, for the benefit of the s-type, so that they can get that sense of atonement or is there some additional reason? ie. What do you as the Dominant get out of having a punishment dynamic in your relationship and would you have one if the s-type didn't "need" one? Part of the reason for my question is this. In the two relationships that i personally know that have a punishment dynamic in place, in one the "slaves" are so disobedient and manipulative, it seems to be the only way to keep them in line. In the other, it seems to be in place or rather is used when the D-type is upset about something and, in my opinion, takes that upset out of his slave, blaming her. So in my opinion, neither of those instances is a "good" example of a punishment dynamic. So that is why i am asking on here. Thank you in advance for your responses, heartfelt It's not so much the form it tales (all relationships look different) as the energy that underpins a dynamic. In my opinion a dominant has no power other than that which is, at the outset, conferred by the submissive. Yes s-types are often manuipulatuve, in ways mostly only understood by the dominant. But it's a kind of wake up call: a look hey, man, guess where your power came from in the first place. Not being able to deal with it, and not necessarily by punishment, makes an s type feel insecure. It's a making of security, rather than a punushment question. Who wants a goody goody anyway?

heartfeltsub -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 10:55:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Punishment can also work as an additional tactile form of communication between the D-type and s-type, where the expected severity of the punishment is meant to be a tangible illustration/parallel of the degree of discomfort/pain/disappointment the D-type felt when the violation was done. Sometimes the perspective and information of not just "X would be displeased with this" but also "this is what it feels like to X when this happens" is a useful system of empathy to place on the s-type in order to help correct a behavior or even just to better meld mindsets together. Thank you for your response. May i ask did you or do you have a punishment dynamic in your relationships? And if so, is this why you have one, or is it a combination things, ie for a variety of reasons? And if you had a girl whose motivation was to obey and didn't try to disobey, would you have a punishment dynamic in place? Thank you again for your response, heartfelt

heartfeltsub -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 10:56:11 AM)
Thank you leadership for your honest reply. heartfelt

agirl -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 11:07:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub quote: ORIGINAL: agirl We have a penalty system that has always worked well. This works because I'm less likely to, for example, stay up much past my bedtime when I know that it's a stroke per minute. It only applies to a few situations where I'm likely to be tempted to stray from the rule due to distractions. It's a you do that, I do this situation. It's effective because I don't like being cold-caned and the odd time that I have got distracted and clocked up 10mins worth, I sorely regretted it. He's not angry, cross, disappointed or bothered in the least and I don't go out of my way to ecrue it, either. We do have a punishment dynamic as well but I've only ever been punished a handful of times in years and years. agirl Thanks for your response agirl. Is this punishment dynamic in place because it is something you need to stay obedient or whatever, or is it place because it is His desire to have it in place, meaning would you be obedient without it? Do you happen to know what if anything He gets out of having a punishment dynamic in place? Thanks again for your response, heartfelt Hi Heartfeltsub, It's a tool to him. It does a quick, efficient job and brings the desired result. It's that simple. The few times that I was punished it was quite early on and was very severe. To be honest, it doesn't even feel like we have one as it's so many years since it's happened. I suppose it's there because we both agree it should be for the specific things he'd use it for. He isn't interested in punishing me up hill and down dale. We have better things to do with our time. The penalty aspect is in play more often. I do get distracted at times, and very occasionally I know that I'm outside of a rule but take the risk because my desire to do what it is I'm doing at the time, is stronger at that moment than the thought of the penalty. It's usually a long time before I risk it again, though. agirl

LadyPact -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 11:23:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub Other than having some sort of recourse for disobedience, do you get something emotionally, mentally out of doing punishment? I suppose you could look at it very much in the way that NZ presented his response above. There is a clarity of communication that comes from punishment. If I am punishing, there is certainly a message that says if we repeat this scenario, it is the end of the dynamic. It could be viewed as an actions speak louder than words situation. Obviously, the words that I've used prior haven't been effective. quote: For example, the Dominant friend of mine that i referenced in the opening post says that punishment for Him, completely separate from S/M play was in place because of the s-type's need for forgiveness and atonement and He gets some satisfaction from helping a girl improve, be a better person, that sort of thing. In My opinion, this is a good mindset. Personally, I think it's an error to confuse punishment with play. The opposite tends to show the ineffectiveness in Dominance and confusing as all get out to the submissive. The latter isn't My style at all. quote: i couldn't get an answer from Him about whether or not He would have a punishment dynamic in place if the s-type didn't feel that need to make atonement. So what if you were in a relationship where there was no deliberate disobedience, do you still feel the need of having a punishment dynamic and if so, is it just for as a recourse or for something else as well. Thanks for your response, heartfelt Not to be entirely glib here, but I'd rather have the policy in place and not need it, than need it when it wasn't established. I really don't base the concept of a punishment dynamic on whether or not I've actually had to punish. I base My definition on whether I have the right to punish or not. The determination of whether a punishment is warranted is a part of My authority. If I never have to use it, great! It's been going on two years now since I've had to punish clip. We ran into a situation last month where he was pretty close. Had he willfully disobeyed Me during the corrective action I was taking, I would have punished him. For as long as I have the right to do so, I will consider this a punishment dynamic.

IronBear -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 11:23:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear Rather than a punishment dynamic, I prefer to have an Education Program. I believe that if a girl screws up, the problem may rest in plart with me for not spending the necessary time in training or explaining what is required or I failed to verify that she has completely understood. My answer is to retrain as well as explaining why some things need be done the way I expect or why they need to be done at all. I simply refuse to fall, back on the "Because I said so," reason or even "Because I can". Even in some cases which may be attention seeking, I prefer to issue additional tasks of an unpleasant type instead to use physical or corporal punishment. I can always remove privelages like wearing clothes in the home or remove favorite deserts from her dinner and there is the hated "Corner Time". When it comes to Corporal Punishment, I expect the girl to bed/ask if we can use this as a play basis later. She should understand that it takes little to bring out my inner Sadist. Thank you for your response. Just to qualify, what i am talking about is not "play" S/M or funishment, but actual punishment that is completely separate from play. Do you use such a thing in your relationships and if you do, do you do so because it is something that the s-type needs for whatever reason, or do you also get something out of it. Thanks again, heartfelt Thank you lass. Aye I understood that you were looking at actual punishment. The corporal punishment is used only if all else fails. By this I refer to deliberate disobedience, or continual failure to complete tasks due to whatever, tasks which can be completed satisfactorily on time. I will use it to as a means of discouraging brattiness (as different to light teasing at appropriate times) or rudeness to a guest (Punishment then is admittedly harsh and done at the time with the offended person/s as witness). I get nothing out of such punishments other then a sense of disappointment, sadness and failure. I do not punish because I think or feel it is something the slave needs. We have ways and means for this and if she needs to make further or alternative atonement. I am open to thwacking her a few licks of the "Pain giver: my special flogger which has caused terror in the minds and memories of so\me trough male sub/slaves who had it tried out on them by their owners. No one went more than twenty strokes without begging for it to stop. This is the only time when the slave may request a specific form of punishment and the length of it, because I understand the need to make an atonement.

DarkSteven -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 11:47:14 AM)
I once had an odd relationship that was largely punishment based. She had had no real childhood and craved someone to mentor her and assign punishments when warranted. The corrections became regular, and were clearly not causing serious behavior mod. I suspect that she craved the punishments as a form of caring.

TotalDiscipline -> RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question (2/16/2011 11:52:04 AM)
There are subs that want or even ask to be punished when they think they did something wrong. They feel "naked"when they get none. For me personally..it is not satisfying. I punish when I want to, not because they want to. I believe punishment is not punishment when one craves for it.

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