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RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 8:53:46 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		And the same is true of corporate dollars.

Welcome to the U.S. Constitution.


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 441
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 8:56:48 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
You seem unable to process info in a linear fashion.
But I'll try one more time.
1.You wrote: "Collective Bargainin *IS* one of those important corner stones that make up the concept of a union. "
2. I proved that it wasn't.
3. You admitted it wasn't, as you argued that I'm wrong.


You haven't proved....CRAP....yet, TS. Keep deluding yourself. You have yet to show one ounce of solid, unrefutable evidence that your arguement is correct. You know what you ahve shown? That you can show respect for your fellow Americans. Heck, you can't even identify a decent defination of 'collective bargaining'. See, when educated and intelligent people discuss a topic for debate, they agree to the terms. Makes for less arguing and name calling later (or in your case, before the arguement starts). Then, the person that has a problem makes their case, and we ....TALK.... like adults and citizens. We don't resort to name calling, low blows, or immaturity. You know who does that?

KIDS.

Why don't you tell all of us what 'collective bargaining' actually is.....MINUS....the petty political crap you normally shovel. I want to see seven sources of information that come from legitmate locations on the web (i.e. no pro-hatred of union sites). And it has to be your words. We'll all ask you clarrifying questions, just to make sure we are all in agreement. And you should not lose patience; because if you do, you lose the arguement before it starts.

Think your man enough to handle that, TS?





< Message edited by joether -- 2/20/2011 8:57:05 AM >

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 442
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 8:57:42 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
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From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

Its okay, arpig - I never expected that Canadians were capable of getting the joke either.
Canadians or anyone else for that matter.

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Profile   Post #: 443
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:01:26 AM   
Sanity


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You dont understand even the very basics! I choose whether or not to patronize a given corporation, while there is no choice where taxpayer dollars are involved. I HAVE to pay taxes, average children HAVE to attend public schools, and teachers HAVE to join these crooked unions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And the same is true of corporate dollars.

Welcome to the U.S. Constitution.




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Profile   Post #: 444
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:03:12 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Some will arpig, but try not to feel too bad.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArpigCanadians or anyone else for that matter.


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(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 445
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:12:11 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Don't worry Tom, nothing online bothers me anyway....



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Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Profile   Post #: 446
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:13:24 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Do everyone a huge favor and spread the word

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I've been there, so trust me I know.




Don't clip quotes out of context.

It just makes you look as foolish as someone I cannot name because he might report me.

Sort of like the hall monitors back in high school.



(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 447
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:16:28 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Thanks joe, for underscoring one of the main problems with union thugs leeching off of the taxpayers. These "dues" are confiscated from the public employees then given to political candidates whether the union member agrees with the politics of the union bosses or not.

Taxpayer dollars going straight into campaign coffers is indeed a huge problem, even if one is too myopic to see it


How do you see it as tax dollars?

The company pays the employees (the company gets paid by the goverment for products/services rendered). The employees are not forced to work for the company. They can leave at anytime; unless conditions say otherwise (i.e. contract). If they choose to work at a company that has a union, then they give their consent to the rules of the Union at the door. If they don't like it, they can find another job/career. So really your arguement is lame at best, and total laugh at worst.

If someone doesn't like what the Union does with the money, they can just quit the company, hired into management, or try to get legislation to pass that is more favorable to them.

Believe it or not, there are companies in which there maybe a Union presence, but some employees don't work for them, but are not tied directly to management either. Those are quite a bit more complex, and hence, out of your realm of understanding. But just to help you understand as it ties to this thread. The employee in that special case, doesn't pay money to the Union, but might get the protections offered to those employees that are in the Union, if there was ever a worker's dispute between the individual employee and management. As I said, stuff like that is REALLY complex and on a case by case basis with companies (or even branchs of the same company).


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 448
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:18:58 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

An excellent try when you were claiming $100,000/yr, twice that just a few pages ago.


$100,000/yr total COMPENSATION, dumbass.

Youre as bad as rule...




Which you still haven't documented for us.

But I'm still waiting patiently.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 449
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:19:29 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Most teachers that Ive known...


Where would you have ever had the opportunity to meet a teacher? They're usually found in schools, you know.



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RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:20:13 AM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Its okay, arpig - I never expected that Canadians were capable of getting the joke either.
Canadians or anyone else for that matter.

If a joke needs explaining, then it's a pretty crappy joke.

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RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:22:12 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Or its simply over your head.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
If a joke needs explaining, then it's a pretty crappy joke.


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Profile   Post #: 452
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:26:08 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Or alternatively, the lazy greedy teachers could do their jobs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I see. You'd rather the whole thing had been geared towards the students who needed the least help, and yourself and the c stream got fucked, then?



Their job is to do everything they can to make sure all of the students in the class grasp the subject before they move onto the next one, not to show favouritism to a few smart alecs who think that they're better than the rest of their peer group.
The only way to resolve the problem you're bitching about would be to hire more lazy greedy teachers in order to farm the dumb kids who are holding the rest back into separate classes. Given that you've spent this thread pissing and moaning about what existing teachers are paid, I take it you wouldn't be in favour of this.

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Profile   Post #: 453
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:27:29 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

You dont understand even the very basics! I choose whether or not to patronize a given corporation, while there is no choice where taxpayer dollars are involved. I HAVE to pay taxes, average children HAVE to attend public schools, and teachers HAVE to join these crooked unions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And the same is true of corporate dollars.

Welcome to the U.S. Constitution.


No, they don't "have" to. I know several who didn't. They can also have back the portion of dues allocated for political activities even if in the union--and they do.

Nor are these taxpayer dollars--they are teacher paid union dues.

THOSE are "the very basics."




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 2/20/2011 9:28:45 AM >

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 454
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:28:40 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Or its simply over your head.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
If a joke needs explaining, then it's a pretty crappy joke.


In the case of a few of the jokers on here, that's rather unlikely, I'm afraid.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
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Profile   Post #: 455
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:33:47 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Incidentally, the 2009 $49,000 average Wisconsin teacher salary is the same as the 2009 overall Wisconsin average worker salary.

So hardly "overpaid."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 456
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:34:28 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
You dont understand even the very basics! I choose whether or not to patronize a given corporation, while there is no choice where taxpayer dollars are involved. I HAVE to pay taxes, average children HAVE to attend public schools, and teachers HAVE to join these crooked unions.


Not entirely true, Sanity.

If you purchase a bottle of Sprite (You know, the soft drink?). Did the folks who own the liquid that comes in the bottle (Coke-Cola, I believe), also make the bottle? Not likely, as the folks that make Sprite are in the business of selling the liquid, not the bottle. That's why you never see empty bottles of Sprite being sold on their own (I know it sounds silly to all of you, but this is for Sanity). Yes, the folks that own Sprite told the bottle designer how they wanted it to look, and manufacture the bottles to their specifications for adding their liquid.

Do you get a say in who Sprite uses to bottle their liquid in it? Mostly likely 'no'. In fact, I doubt you have ever stopped and considered the notion before now.

For the rest of your statement....

You don't have to pay taxes. There is nothing and no body forcing you to pay taxes. There are penalties to not paying taxes, but no one is forcing you to pay them. The only person that is forcing you to pay them is YOU. That applies for Income Taxes (generally speaking). That bottle of Sprite in the example above. Lets say it has a $0.08 'Soda Tax' attached to it. If you want that bottle of Sprite, your going to pay the cost of the soda plus any taxes attached to the soda (the $0.08). If you purchase the bottle, you have given your consent to be taxed.

No one is forcing you to buy the bottle of soda.

Now, sounds like an opening for Health Care (one of your favorite topics). Since you will state your forced to buy, and I quote "Obamacare". No one is forcing you to buy a health insurance, but there is a penalty to not purchasing one.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 457
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:36:46 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
They could have some very fine private schools with the kind of money theyre giving the unions in Wisconsin, to give to the Democrats. Or another good alternative would be to make Wisconsin a right to work state.

But governor Walkers plan is at least a start.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

How do you see it as tax dollars?

The company pays the employees (the company gets paid by the goverment for products/services rendered). The employees are not forced to work for the company. They can leave at anytime; unless conditions say otherwise (i.e. contract). If they choose to work at a company that has a union, then they give their consent to the rules of the Union at the door. If they don't like it, they can find another job/career. So really your arguement is lame at best, and total laugh at worst.

If someone doesn't like what the Union does with the money, they can just quit the company, hired into management, or try to get legislation to pass that is more favorable to them.

Believe it or not, there are companies in which there maybe a Union presence, but some employees don't work for them, but are not tied directly to management either. Those are quite a bit more complex, and hence, out of your realm of understanding. But just to help you understand as it ties to this thread. The employee in that special case, doesn't pay money to the Union, but might get the protections offered to those employees that are in the Union, if there was ever a worker's dispute between the individual employee and management. As I said, stuff like that is REALLY complex and on a case by case basis with companies (or even branchs of the same company).




_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 458
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:42:36 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

with the kind of money theyre giving the unions in Wisconsin


Again, the teachers pay the unions, not the taxpayers, and out of salaries no higher than the average Wisconsin income.

And they can opt out of the portion used for political purposes.

If people want fine private schools, they of course can choose to pay for them. That they haven't indicates there's not a sufficient market need, or they would. It's how markets work.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 2/20/2011 9:44:34 AM >

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 459
RE: SCOTT WALKER for President - 2/20/2011 9:58:07 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Again, the teachers pay the unions, not the taxpayers,


Bullshit. The teachers have no choice, its confiscated from their pay and they have no say in the matter. Taxpayer money goes directly to the Democrat party via the unions.

quote:

and out of salaries no higher than the average Wisconsin income.


Bullshit, 2x 3x 4xthe average Wisconsin income

quote:



And they can opt out of the portion used for political purposes.


Can they? I doubt that, especially since everything else you spout is bullshit

quote:

If people want fine private schools, they of course can choose to pay for them.


In an ideal world, with the same money that is used to finance the unions

quote:

That they haven't indicates there's not a sufficient market need, or they would. It's how markets work.




Or it indicates that the unions have a virtual monopoly on the market due to overly generous public funding. Think, focus - its hard to bring something to market that has to compete with something the other guy has taxpayers paying for.


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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 460
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